Editor’s Note: This transcript was created using AI transcription and formatting tools. While we’ve reviewed it for accuracy, some errors may remain. If anything seems unclear, we recommend referring back to the episode above.
Episode Trailer
“I think it would be really good if we could get more women in representation. As with everything, and there are studies on it, the more diverse—not only in terms of gender but overall different aspects—the more diverse the group of experts is, the better the outcome.”
“I just hope that those smaller companies that were just starting or running ad hoc, and especially utilizing the free version of Google Optimize, I just hope they will continue. So my advice would be to just make sure you continue your experimentation program and that you continue to learn.”
“After the first one of the first talks I’ve done, I received feedback that I inspired young women that were just starting in the CRO area. You get this fantastic feeling that you as an individual are able to inspire others. And as for all of us women, at the same time it’s the responsibility that comes with it.”
“If you’re just starting in the field, try to get as many internships and projects, even pro bono, as you can on your hands just to get that practical experience, as that is going to give you a head start once starting the recruitment process.”
“You know, as with everything in life, I think a woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be acknowledged. My advice would be to invest in social media presence and make sure that you’re always top of mind. At the end of the day, CRO is still quite small as a field, so to ensure that the opportunities are coming your way: network, be visible, be top of mind.”
Introduction
Welcome to another episode of the Women in CRO series by VWO podcast. This series is an ode to the contribution of women in the CRO industry.
Before we speak to our special guest for this episode, here’s a quick summary of who we are and what we do: VWO is a leading experience optimization platform that helps fast-growing brands optimize their digital experiences. Using our latest product, VWO Insights, you can understand user journeys and identify conversion roadblocks on your website and mobile apps.
So without any further delay, let’s jump right into the conversation.
Guest Introduction
Jinal: Hello everybody, welcome to the Women in CRO podcast. I’m your Jinal Akanksha, excited about today’s episode with our guest Maria.
Maria is a dynamic CRO lead at Telenor Stockholm. She spearheads CRO strategy, driving innovations and optimizations crucial for achieving ambitious conversion and sales targets. With a keen eye for detail, Maria plans, executes, and evaluates experiments while collaborating cross-functionally in order to enhance customer experiences.
Maria’s expertise extends from stakeholder management to quantitative research, honed through diverse roles like Marketing Analytics Team Lead at Precise Digital and Web Analytics Manager at Electrolux Group.
Join us as we delve into Maria’s journey, insights, and the evolving landscape of CRO in today’s digital domain.
Main Interview
Personal Introduction and Current Work
Jinal: Hi Maria, welcome to the Women in CRO podcast.
Maria: Thanks so much, I’m really excited about this one.
Jinal: How are you doing today?
Maria: I’m good. It’s a little bit rainy in Stockholm, but it’s Friday, so you know, it’s a good day ahead of the weekend.
Jinal: What were your initial thoughts when you received the invitation to be on the podcast?
Maria: I was really honored. You know, being a feminist and speaking on behalf of women is something very dear to my heart, so as I said, I have been actually looking forward to our chat today, and I’m curious how it will turn out.
Jinal: Women’s Day is around the corner, so I’m curious—do you make a point to celebrate it?
Maria: Yeah, I think there is a Women in Tech event, if I remember correctly, so I’m really hoping to get that ticket. You know, it’s always an inspiring conference to join. But overall, it’s I guess a day where we’re reminded to make sure we celebrate each other as well and give ourselves the positive feedback that we need.
Conference Experiences and Speaking
Jinal: What summit or conference do you enjoy or you enjoyed in your past that you remember even today?
Maria: I think I will answer twofold because this is a very tough question—there are a lot of conferences out there that are great. Just to name a few: Super Week, all the Measure Camps, Women in Tech as I just mentioned. But just to answer from two sides—one as a participant and the other one as a speaker.
I would say from a participant point of view, I loved Conversion Hotel. Conversion Hotel awakened something in me I wasn’t even aware it was there. So it’s a great opportunity to network, to learn, to get inspired. So I would say that’s a really good one.
And from a speaker point of view, I was really happy to receive a challenge of speaking in front of an audience of a thousand people at Opticon last year. So I would say if I had to choose, I would choose these two.
Jinal: You had multiple experiences, so pulling these two—and as you described, it was wonderful when you get to speak amongst multiple audiences from diverse backgrounds.
Maria: Yeah, I really enjoy conferences. I think that’s the way to learn. I particularly enjoy learning from listening to others and others’ experiences and learnings as well. So once you know what didn’t work for others, then you can try to avoid that.
Jinal: That helps to tune our own approach as well because that’s how we curate ours, and we end up avoiding the mistakes that were done in the past and learn from them. And that’s how also it matters in the CRO industry as well—the same could be taken forward as well.
Evolution of CRO Approach
Jinal: How has your approach to CRO changed over the years? Like, did you have any myths that were broken, if any?
Maria: So since I had, as you mentioned at the beginning, possibility to work with different organizations, I actually needed to change my approach from one business to another. And since CRO is such a cross-functional area, there are so many different roles that contribute to its success. I think as a CRO lead and person that kind of promotes this culture of being data-driven, you have to adjust your way.
So for example, Electrolux was really good at testing whatever they were releasing, so working with this release backlog and making sure that the features that were released were tested. Whereas at Telenor, they’re very good at user testing actually, and having that initial research before it even reaches kind of product development process.
So yes, definitely depending on the organization, one has to adjust its approach. But as I mentioned also to you before we started—no myths broken, that’s good.
Jinal: I think you spent almost nine-plus years in that phase as well at Electrolux, so the journey would have been great there as well in terms of learning and trying new things out.
Maria: Absolutely. The organization has changed tremendously since 2012 when I joined. It was really pleasurable to see how the organization changed and became more and more data-driven. It was actually quite satisfactory to see. Obviously, as you’re one of those ambassadors who drive that change, it’s nice to see it happen.
Google Optimize Sunset Impact
Jinal: We all know that Google Optimize sunset was a major event in the industry last year. So how do you feel that landscape has changed for businesses that used to rely on Google Optimize? Any advice would you like to give to them?
Maria: Yeah, so I mean, we were one of those businesses. So at Telenor we used Google Optimize still until summer last year, and we were on that bandwagon of kind of panic as the announcement went out at the beginning of January. I remember I was at Super Week at the time and tried to confirm the news with Google representatives that were present there and tried to pull some more information—what does that mean? Are you going to have another tool?
You know, what was beautiful about Google Optimize was its integration to Google Analytics. That’s really—that was the strength, and that’s where a lot of analysts felt comfortable because they know Google Analytics so well.
And yeah, I mean, it’s been an interesting process going through the tender and finding the right partner. But I think what I’m concerned mostly about with that change of the industry really is that those companies that were running more ad hoc programs when it comes to experimentation—I just hope they continue, because the one risk is that they haven’t replaced the device with anything, even though there are free replacements out there.
You know, after Optimize kind of went away from that space, I think each of the vendors available got a little bit of piece of the pie, so it kind of spread throughout the rest of the industry. But yeah, I just hope that those smaller companies that were just starting or running ad hoc, and especially utilizing the free version of Google Optimize, I just hope they will continue.
So my advice would be to just make sure you continue your experimentation program and that you continue to learn, because that’s I think the biggest risk.
Jinal: It was a little bit surprising as well, right? When it happened, everybody was looking at what would happen next and what would come in place and all that.
Maria: Yeah, you should have seen my reaction at Super Week—I was kind of collecting my jaw from the floor as the announcement went out. But yeah, some of the more seasoned professionals within the industry said that they saw it coming. I didn’t see it coming, so for me it was an absolute shock.
Speaking Experiences and Inspiration
Jinal: What is one thing that you really love about speaking at summits, or one thing that you still find challenging even today?
Maria: Yeah, I’ll never forget that feeling that I had when, after the first one of the first talks I’ve done, I received feedback that I inspired young women that were just starting in the CRO area. And honestly, the realization really hit me at that time. It was both—yeah, this fantastic feeling that you as an individual are able to inspire others. And as for all of us women, at the same time it’s the responsibility that comes with it.
So after that, I made sure that I always come prepared. I wanted to make sure that my content is even better and the message that I have to convey. So it’s yeah, it’s really that feedback that you are able to give someone else just a little bit more energy to their day, and I think that’s the best with all of the speaking events—that you are able to inspire others.
And in terms of a challenge, I still find it challenging to be able to find content. You know, when you do a lot of talks and speeches, you want to make sure that you deliver quality, and you yourself need to get inspired. So I think that constant search for content can be, frankly, exhausting.
Jinal: Like, your experience would be like curating each and every day. And when you pass those events, so I think that’s a constant fuel as well to the next event.
Maria: Absolutely.
Professional Achievements
Jinal: Can you talk about a specific project or achievement that you still are proud of even today?
Maria: I am really, really proud of us winning Experimentation Culture Awards last year. It’s—yes, it became even more valuable once I met other companies that competed against us during Conversion Hotel. So it’s yeah, just very gratifying to see all your hard work and your efforts are being recognized, especially on this international field. So yeah, definitely I’m really proud of that one.
Jinal: That’s a great achievement in itself, and it would be a memory forever as well.
Maria: Yep, and I have the statue also to kind of memorize it, so I have the trophy that always reminds me of that achievement on the bad days, that we still have—we had something and we can still do beyond this.
Jinal: Absolutely. I mean, as optimizers, you know, you don’t only optimize the websites or the channels you’re responsible for or apps—you also optimize your life and yourself as an individual. So you always want to be better and you always learn. This is the area that I think is never stagnant. You continuously learn, we continuously learn and add, and then learn from our mistakes too. Because when an experiment fails, that’s the main thing that also helps us in our life—that if failure is not one stop, it’s just that we reiterate some good things from that and move forward. So I think that also goes hand-in-hand with our current understanding and the industry implementations as well.
Industry Misconceptions and Common Mistakes
Jinal: You have been in the industry for quite a long time. Is there something that you find that organizations get wrong about CRO even today, and any misconceptions that lack awareness about certain topics even today in the industry?
Maria: I think what I’ve seen in the industry is that some organizations think that CRO can be delivered with one individual. So they hire probably a fantastic person, and there’s nothing against that person, but experimentation is such a cross-functional area that I think lacking that awareness about the complexity of it puts them directly into a hard situation to get out of, because one person cannot carry the weight of changing the culture of the company. So I think that’s a mistake that I see happen often.
And another one I would say is not having enough resources and not dedicating enough developer resources to experimentation programs. Again, I think that just comes with maturity of different markets, and the more you experiment, the more you understand the importance of the development resources. So those would be the two that I see happening over and over. So hopefully we will have less of that in the future.
Jinal: Yes, more the awareness, I think, lesser would be the confusions and misconceptions. And the field is also expanding. Back some years back, it was a little bit new and it was less aware as well, but gradually we see that awareness has started increasing, and people are contributing more to the forums through LinkedIn and many other channels as well. So I think that’s good fuel for others to get inspired as well.
Maria: Absolutely. There are a lot of communities and events where it’s important to be present and to get that exposure and visibility. So yeah, especially if you’re starting in the field, there are certain Slack channels such as CRO Nordics or Women in Experimentation or Test and Learn Community. I think those are really good places to start and be present at. And then some of the events that we already mentioned—it’s really good to learn and participate in those.
Advice for Newcomers
Jinal: If you were to put yourselves in the shoes of young women who would want to enter the CRO world, where would you like to start from?
Maria: Yeah, so as I just touched upon, I think that the most important thing is just to be present—show up. There are these networks and events that can get you started. So we mentioned the Slack channels.
In terms of events, I would say from the paid ones: Conversion Hotel, there’s Women in Tech that is for free, Conversion Jam, Growth Marketing Summit, Measure Camps that are for free, then Experimentation Culture Awards—actually the announcement is a nice event to listen to, there’s a lot of knowledge there as well. Then there’s also Experimentation Elite and all the vendor conferences—you know, VWO, ContentSquare, Convert, Optimizely, Experimentation. So all of these are worth joining.
And if you’re just starting in the field, I know that it’s really important for the companies to choose someone that has the most work experience, even if someone just finished school or studying. So try to get as many internships and projects, even pro bono, as you can on your hands just to get that practical experience, as that is going to give you a head start once starting the recruitment process.
So yeah, always try to learn and stay up to date, as that might impress the next hiring manager. So I would say those would be a couple of tips for those that are just starting.
Advice for Mid-Level Professionals
Jinal: Any piece of advice for the mid-level people who have already seen CRO and are trying to improve further? Because they are somewhere who started some time back and they would want to continue, but anything that should fuel their experiences or they should follow, apart from the one that you said that they should continuously contribute? And apart from contribution, they must also take from the community.
Maria: Absolutely. And I think for women that are trying to build their careers, as I mentioned, there is right now this fantastic network of Women in Experimentation, and their purpose is exactly that—to lift each other and bring more visibility to female CRO experts.
But you know, as with everything in life, I think a woman has to work twice as hard as a man to be acknowledged. And my advice would be to invest in social media presence and make sure that you’re always top of mind. At the end of the day, CRO is still quite small as a field, so to ensure that the opportunities are coming your way: network, be visible, be top of mind.
Speaking and Content Creation
Jinal: Would you want to ever deliver a TED Talk, and what would be your message? Like, if one word around that?
Maria: Oh, that’s a tough one. I think, as I’ve mentioned, because the more you talk, the better you want your quality to be. I have no idea what the TED Talk would be about. Maybe it would be about CRO, but potentially it will be about something broader, such as us just developing as humans throughout our whole professional and personal life. I think those are the topics that interest me.
Regardless of what it would be, I would definitely prepare a lot to do just to make sure that it’s spot on. You only get probably one opportunity like that in your life.
Jinal: That’s true. And tell us one word describing your experience talking to us in this episode, or maybe a short description around that.
Maria: I mean, I’m just happy that these topics are being discussed. You know, the more we talk about women in experimentation, the more visibility we give to women in experimentation. So I think this is also my attempt to give back a little to the community. As you said, we take from the community when the opportunity comes, but at the same time we owe it to give back to other women that are just starting or want to build their career.
Jinal: That’s great, and that would help them uplift. Like you mentioned, there are communities out there who are trying to uplift each other, and this way, once you have taken something, when it’s time to give back, it definitely would be given back to someone who’s new. So the cycle continues and we keep evolving.
Maria: Exactly—the transfer of positive energy.
Rapid Fire Round
Jinal: All right then, we had a fantastic discussion and it’s now the time to switch gears and enter our rapid fire round, where I’ll put some quick questions your way and would love to hear your spontaneous responses. Okay, let’s do it.
Q: Three apps that you cannot live without? A: My God—Instagram, LinkedIn, and Gmail.
Q: If a movie was made about your life, what would the title be? A: Literally no idea… “Aspiring Speaker,” or maybe something around like, as you said, this topic also interests you about uplifting women and giving back—something around that. Yeah, I think so.
Q: One thing you would like to change about the CRO industry? A: I think it would be really good if we could get more women in representation in the CRO area. I think as with everything, and there are studies on it, the more diverse—not only in terms of gender but overall different aspects—the more diverse the group of experts is, the better the outcome. So yeah, if I could change anything, I would increase the diversity in the field.
Q: What’s the most random fact that you know by heart? A: Oh, this is maybe not appropriate, let me think about something else. I know carrots—the original color of carrots was purple, not orange, and actually it was colored orange after the Dutch royal family, and their last name was Orange. So that’s where the color orange came from. So that’s a random fact for you.
Q: What is your guilty pleasure TV show or movie? A: Oh my… So we are currently watching Love is Blind. As with all the experiments, we just really like the scientific part behind it, and you know, that people are actually trusting their lives and their partners’ lives into this experiment—one big experiment that Love is Blind is. So yeah, I love any of these, and otherwise all the matchmaking shows. So yeah, I love all the cultural bits of the matchmaking shows from Netflix—you learn about different cultures from that.
Q: If you had a podcast, who’s the first person that you would want to invite on the show? A: Oh, Ton Wesseling. That’s an easy one. Ton is a fantastic person to look after—he’s a great mentor, person that always is ready to offer wisdom. So that’s an easy one. Ton will be definitely the first guest. I hope this podcast reaches Ton.
Q: Three books that you would recommend to our listeners? A: “We Are All Feminists”—so that’s actually quite a short book but really impactful one. “Invisible Women”—a really good book, actually full of statistics about presence of women in today’s life. And the last one I would go for “Controlled Experiments” by Ron Kohavi—so just, let’s say, a guiding book to CRO.
Q: What is one superpower that you would want to have if given a chance? A: I would love to be able to teleport. I really like traveling, but sometimes the travel time is not that pleasurable to spend, you know, all these hours on a plane. So if I could, I would love to be able to teleport.
Q: What’s your favorite destination? Like, you mentioned you travel, you wish to travel, and you love to travel more. A: This topic I would say is separate for a whole podcast about traveling. I love traveling and can talk about it for hours. But yeah, actually the planner that I am, I plan the next 20 years of my life of traveling. So I want to make sure that the destinations I choose are the ones that I really want to go to. So yeah, one of the destinations that are in the next years is New Zealand, so I’m hoping that I will be able to reach New Zealand soon. And otherwise there are other destinations such as Japan or Canada also on the list to explore.
Q: What is one thing that you’re tired of explaining to your clients? A: Ooh… So being a part of telecom industry, there are a lot of things that I think our customers do not understand. One thing would be feasibility. So as a telecom provider, whenever the consumer is looking for their broadband connection, they actually have to fill in their address so we can determine whether our network is available at that address or not. And it is very top of mind for us because obviously we offer that service, but it’s not something that consumers are thinking about, and they don’t want that hurdle of filling in their address. They’re like, “Why can’t you just tell me what the prices are or which internet can I get without me filling in my address?” So yeah, it would be great if we have a little bit more—I don’t want to use the word mercy—but if maybe they have a little bit more understanding towards us there, that would be fantastic.
Q: One goal or dream that you’d want to achieve in the next three years? A: I mean, I think as I’ve mentioned, traveling is quite important to me. There are also—from women and from development point of view—I’m quite an ambitious person, and I would love to be a part of some of the leadership programs that are there for women in Sweden, such as SPES or RADAM. So that would be a fantastic achievement if I get to do it, let’s say within the next five years.
Closing
Jinal: All right, so hope you reach all the achieved goals and may you achieve all of them.
Maria: Thanks.
Jinal: All right, anything else you’d want to add from your side and for the audience?
Maria: Have a fantastic International Women’s Day and continue to kick ass.
Jinal: Great. Big thanks, Maria, for joining us today and sharing your valuable insights. Thanks for tuning in to Women in CRO. Remember, together we are driving the change and shaping the future of CRO. Until next time, stay curious, keep exploring.
