Editor’s Note: This transcript was created using AI transcription and formatting tools. While we’ve reviewed it for accuracy, some errors may remain. If anything seems unclear, we recommend referring back to the episode above.
Episode Trailer
How do you compare Taiwan’s digital experimentation landscape to New Zealand? I think both countries are mature in their own sense. So New Zealand, they’re probably more mature in terms of strategies, experimentation. In Taiwan, they’re quite the expert in automation and advertising. Businesses, they want to put all the information on page, the material, the price, original price discount.
They check all the information on page, but what they don’t realize is when users see that much information, they’ll freak out or be too lazy to read through it. Back in COVID time, a lot of businesses moved purely online, and now that people are, you know, started traveling again, people do research online and maybe do the actual purchase in store.
I see that’s the next sector, and CRO obviously needs to be part of this as well. The culture in Taiwan tends to be like one person, having multiple responsibilities. It’s very tiring. But on the other hand. It’s very useful. Just imagine if a UX designer can also do data analysis. That speeds up the experimentation process a lot.
Introduction
Aanchal Mahajan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the VW Podcast, where insights meet impact. Whether you are walking your dog stuck in the traffic or multitasking like a pro. We are glad you are here in today’s episode, we are joined by April Hung, who is a digital consultant, uh, with over six years of experience in digital marketing, CRO and digital analytics.
And she began her journey, uh, in New Zealand’s media industry. Where she led data driven strategies for one of the country’s largest entertainment group. And now she’s based in Taiwan. She runs her own consultancy, which is for digital, which helps brands turn insights into action and create more meaningful digital experiences.
April brings a very fresh, real world view of what it takes to build a testing culture, especially you know, in markets where CRO is still evolving. And in this episode, she shares how she ties data and marketing together. The nuances of working across APAC and what businesses can do today to start making better and faster digital decisions.
So let’s dive in. Hi April. Welcome to the VW Podcast. How are you doing today?
April Hung: Hello everyone. I’m doing great. Thank you.
Childhood and Background
Aanchal Mahajan: Right? You know, I wanted to start the conversation by understanding a little bit about your childhood. What did you think you would grow up to be when you were a kid, and how close or far is that from what you’re doing today?
April Hung: Um, I guess my childhood’s quite interesting, so my family moved to New Zealand when I was four. Um, and then right until I was about to start, uh, primary, so I think elementary in the states, um, they sent me back to Taiwan because they wanted me to learn Chinese, which I’m very glad they made that decision.
Um, so after spanning six years learning Chinese in Taiwan, um, I moved back again to New Zealand. And then I study from high school, uh, junior high school, high school uni, right till last year when I decided to move back to Taiwan again. So my childhood and my life been traveling back and forth to two countries.
Um, and yeah, I, I guess the culture part really impact me a lot, you know, having, uh, you know, spending early childhood in New Zealand and then. Back to Taiwan with the market or the environment more competitive, and then back to New Zealand, which was super chill. Um, so I, I think I got that quite interesting mix of, you know, being competitive and being relaxed at the same time.
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah.
April Hung: Uh, yeah, that’s my background really is just traveling between the two entries.
Journey from New Zealand to Taiwan
Aanchal Mahajan: Interesting. Uh, on a related note, right, your journey reminds me of the phrase, uh, geography changed, but instincts persist, right? Uh, you have had a unique journey from analytics and optimization in New Zealand media to building your own agency in Taiwan. Uh, help me understand what key mindset, or, you know, the skill sets from your New Zealand experience have shaped your approach, uh, to digital marketing now in Asia.
April Hung: Um, that’s a real interesting question. So I guess I’ll start with sharing my own experience from working in New Zealand in the past five, six years. Um, so I don’t know if you know, New Zealand is actually rated as one of the top countries to work in. Because work life balance is something that everyone cares so much about.
Um, and from my own experience I can validate that too. Like it’s such a wonderful workplace environment that people care about each other so much and they want you to take risks, not always working. Um, from all the companies I’ve worked in in New Zealand, they all have one thing in common, and that is they’re very, um, encourage, they encourage people to raise their.
Um, thought, raise any questions. And I think that make a big impact of how the team work together, the synergies and how we can tackle problems together. And that is something I don’t see as much in Taiwan. I, and I guess that’s because, you know, people that’s so busy all the time, they, they don’t really have the capacity to do that.
They just want to get tasks done after another. Um, so I kind of brought that mindset of, you know, always ask questions, always take the time to think about problems before solving. So I kind of brought that mindset to Taiwan. So, um, when I work with clients, my first initial, uh, conversation always start with, Hey, what’s the.
Problem that you’re facing right now, and why do you think that’s a problem? And tell me more about your business. Because often not, they think they know the problem, but often the problem, they think it’s a problem is not the main course. So yeah, so I kind of brought that, um, mindset of ask questions, um, really understand big picture before diving right into the problem.
Comparing Digital Markets: Taiwan vs New Zealand
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah, I mean, I agree to, uh, some extent. New Zealand is a very mature digital market, and Taiwan is an emerging digital market.
April Hung: Hmm.
Aanchal Mahajan: Having worked, you know, with clients across both the regions, how do you compare Taiwan’s, uh, you know, digital experimentation landscape to New Zealand? Like what factors do you feel stand out the most?
April Hung: Um, I would say like, I think both countries are mature in their own sense. So New Zealand, they’re probably more mature in terms of strategies, experimentation, and Taiwan is, they’re quite, you know, the expert in advertising I would say like automation and advertising. So they’re good at what they’re good at in different parts and.
Um, the culture in Taiwan tends to be like one person, um, have multiple responsibilities. As an example, when I was working as a marketing manager for a company in Taiwan, I have to look after SEO Analytics content marketing. Unlike events, off flight events, and that’s a lot of work for one person, but that tends to be the, the norm in Taiwan.
So everyone is expected to do a lot of things, which I think, you know, it is very tiring. But on the other hand, it’s very useful when it comes to experimentation. Just imagine if a UX designer can also do data analysis. Or if a data analyst analyst happens to have the skill to do front end editing, you know, that speeds up the experimentation process a lot.
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah.
April Hung: So I think Taiwan’s definitely good at what it’s good at, at the moment, advertising. But once it starts, um, incorporating CRO or experimentation in as part of the business process. It’s gonna make a big impact just because of the structure and the culture that everyone can do a lot of things at the same time.
So yeah, it reduce a lot of wait time and it speeds up the process,
CRO Adoption in Taiwan
Aanchal Mahajan: Okay. I, I really loved your, uh, answer that both of the regions are mature in their own way,
April Hung: Hmm.
Aanchal Mahajan: their way. Help me understand April, uh, you know, in, in Taiwan, what industries do you feel are already embracing. Uh, let’s say structured CRO testing, and which sectors do you, from your experience, feel, or you see as the next major frontier for CRO?
April Hung: Um, I don’t think there’s particularly any sector that’s, you know, already mature in CRO, but I would say a lot of e-commerce. Uh, businesses, they’re willing to try it out.
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm.
April Hung: there are, you know, really a few big ones that’s starting to test out CRO and the whole process of how do we analyze data, how do we make hypothesis?
Um, and I do see the trends of a lot of businesses that operate both offline and online, starting to try out this as well. Think it’s a lot to do with, you know, back in COVID time a lot of businesses moved purely online. And now that people are, you know, started traveling again, we like to go again. Uh, a lot of offline businesses are starting to open up again, so I think we’ll move back to the bricks and mortar model, but where people do research online and maybe do the actual purchase in store.
Um, and I think Seattle plays an interesting role in models like this because now we need to pay even more attention to understand why people come to our site, how do we retain them, and how do we have a proper process in place. So we guide them through, uh, each process so they end up in our physical store.
Um, and I see that’s the next sector. You know, businesses who operate offline and online to be the, the next majority of the market. And Sarah obviously needs to be part of this as well.
Organizational Barriers to AB Testing
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah. I believe best experiments, you know, don’t confirm what you already know. They challenge what you assume. Right? And I’ve always believed that AB testing is 80% mindset. Uh. And also you have hosted, you know, events and you’ve built courses to raise CRO awareness in Taiwan. Help me understand, what do you think are the biggest psychological, or let’s say organizational blockers to AB testing?
April Hung: I think this is very, just to do with they don’t know what it is, is it’s simple as that. No one really talked about it before. And the reason why I started this course is I started to see our course in Taiwan is because I actually looked online, be like, where is anyone looking for CO specialist? What is CRO?
And I found out there was barely any information online and that’s why I started, um, the CRO course. So I think the first problem is people don’t know what it is, and second of all is people when they don’t know, people are scared to invest in it because obviously you need people to look after it. You need money to, you need tools, um, and people are just not willing to invest when they don’t know what it is.
So I think the biggest block is, is not knowing what it is and not knowing what values it can bring to the business.
Qualitative and Quantitative Data Analysis
Aanchal Mahajan: Right. Hey, you can’t optimize what you have not deeply understood. Right. And testing without a user bag, insiders like shooting in the dark also. Uh, well, uh, you know, in the arc of your experience, have you, uh, how have you approached qualitative analysis and how do you bring in, you know, quantitative data to support it?
April Hung: Hmm. I think qualitative is always an interesting one. So from my own experiences, I’ve tried customer interviews, um, and, you know, everyone knows surveys, email, surveys, and they all have each pros and cons to it. So customer interviews obviously is more expensive. Like you need a profit interviewer and you need to find users to do interviews.
So it’s more time consuming and it costs more. Um, email survey is another one that people are probably doing. Um, and that’s, we have two challenges with that. One is response rate. It’s usually quite low and, um, it also costs money to less than customer interviews, but you, you still need to put some budget into the emailing tools.
And thirdly is what I, um, use the most is online survey. Um, I like it because it’s real time. So when users is encountering an issue online, they can send a survey or message straight away. So it is in real time and it’s relatively cheaper than other tools. So that’s kind of the three ways I’ve tried to collect qualitative data.
And the best one I like is online survey and as to how I bring, um, quantitative data to support it. I think that’s. Um, it’s an, it’s interesting because you know, for example, look at heat map. You can look at the scroll, you can look at where people click the most. And usually I will compare that to data in GA four.
So, uh, if you see a lot of red dots on the heat map usually means there’ll be more clicks events on that particular area. So I will look at heat map and then, uh, look at GFO data to see if it match up.
Aanchal Mahajan: Great.
April Hung: Um, so that’s how I bring to support that. But I would think, I think that online survey, it’s also a good way and quantitative.
After that you can use, you know, customer satisfaction score, you can use as a quantified people’s satisfaction as well. So I think there are a lot of ways to bridge that gap and they go hands in hand. So you need both to support your hypotheses.
High-Impact Experiments
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm. That’s a very interesting take. I, uh, I really like, uh, the, the way you have approached. So, in your opinion, April, hit me understand what sort of experiments have had the biggest, you know, strategic impact on your recent work?
April Hung: Um, okay, so I actually spend some time thinking about this and I found one common theme. It’s, uh, less means more.
Aanchal Mahajan: Mm-hmm.
April Hung: So that’s a concept that I’ve been trying out and it’s been, um, you know, working quite well for me is whenever I try to design a new page, a new section often, and not when I try to make it cleaner or to make it less clutter, the conversions always better.
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah.
April Hung: Um, and I think that’s something it’s, you know, important to businesses. ’cause a lot of time they want to put all the information on page and think that users need to understand their products. So they put, you know, uh, to the color, the material, the price, original price discount. They check all the information on the page.
But what they don’t realize is you, when users see that much information often, that they’ll freak out or be too lazy to read through it. Um, so the common thing I’ve been seeing with my strategy recently that’s been working well is, um, less is better. So I try to minimize Yeah, like visually, um, it is just cleaner and people are just more willing to actually, you know, stay on your page, understand your product.
Optimizing for In-App Journeys
Aanchal Mahajan: yeah. Leaner information gets more, uh, attention. That’s so correct, so on point. Right. Uh, April, you know, uh, east Asia, as we all know, that it’s dominated by, you know, WeChat and line, and obviously WhatsApp is not that, uh, dominant here. From your perspective, how, uh, should you know, CRO frameworks adapt for these in-app journeys that never hit, uh, traditional web checkout?
April Hung: Um, I think AB is an interesting one because, uh, it’s kind of a different audience group, right? When you are. On the app already. That means you are already engaged with the brand, otherwise you wouldn’t have downloaded the app in the first place. So we need to think about a different approach to optimize app.
So they’re not people who, you know, just randomly arrive on a website. They’re people who already know you, already know your brand and is willing. To download your apps on their mobile phone. Um, for someone like me, I don’t like downloading apps. So if I have certain companies app on my phone, that means they are important to me.
Um, so yeah, when optimizing apps like that, we need to think about why are they here, how do we make them stay and do the next step. So the concept is different, the mindset is different, and we need to think more about, um, how do we keep them engaged.
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah.
April Hung: Yeah.
Data Privacy and Compliance
Aanchal Mahajan: All right. Uh, also, you know, uh, these days, uh, compliance has become so important for any company, uh, who is out there. And when it comes to user research and testing, especially in Taiwan. Uh, what is your take? How does, uh, the personal Data Protection Act, uh, you know, affect getting any user con, uh, consent or, you know, even storing the data or sending it out outside the country?
April Hung: I think data privacy is like a common concern across the globe that everyone is struggling with the issue and I’ve heard that people are already seeing a big, uh, reduction in J four data or usable data. Um, and I don’t think that’s something we can do about it because it’s. You know, people want to want their data to be protected.
We can’t just breach them and try to get data out of them. Um. Instead, we can think of other ways to collect data. And I think one of the most important one is get first party data. So that’s, you know, set up a good, um, CRM, um, get consent when people register to be a member or, you know, any sort of membership on your website and, you know, try to collect their data.
It could be gender, it could be their brand preferences. Yeah, think of other ways to collect customer data and just make sure that they are aware that their data is being, um, used but won’t be, uh, you know, showed to other people or just be useful, purely marketing purposes. Um, and I think that’s just a way it is.
We just need to think of other ways to collect data, um, make sure that they’re all protected and users are aware of what they’re being used for.
Tech Stack in Taiwan
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm. Okay. Okay. And what does like a typical start or tech stack look like in Taiwanese companies?
April Hung: Um, J four is definitely it, something that everyone has, and it’s integrated with a lot of the, um, the website platform as well. So one brand that Patani use a lot. It’s called Shop Line. So when you build your website on Shop Line, you can’t already integrate your GA four ID and events within the, uh, shop line platform.
Uh, so GA four is definitely something that everyone use. It’s still the majority of the people that use and, uh, GTM to set up tracking. Um, and a lot of people trying to use Heatmaps now. So I think that’s something that. Yeah. Uh, I, I think it’s a good thing that everyone’s noticed is realizing, hey, we actually need to see how people are interacting with our website.
Um, yeah. And for CRO as well, something I’m trying to encourage people to use, um, you know, because it’s, you don’t need coding skills to make tests anymore, so. Yeah, I would say the basic tech stack would be having J four integration. That’s number one. Everyone stack and um, GTM and Heatmaps. Yeah, those are probably the three big ones.
Role of AI in Experimentation
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm. Okay. That’s, that’s an interesting, uh, insight. I think GA four is pretty much common across the globe, uh, which is good to know that even Taiwanese have inculcated, uh, you know, the tech stack with GA four also. But, uh, having said that, I mean, while talking about Tech Stack, you know, I clicked my mind that we are living in an, uh, AI driven era.
And you know, the lines between the automation and intuition are now blurring so fast, right? For sure AI can accelerate, uh, you know, the how, but the real question is whether it’s helping us ask better wise, uh, from your perspective. April, uh, do AI tools play a role in your day-to-day experiments today?
April Hung: Um, I, it does, and it helped me a lot with the technical part. So that’s probably the, the how, and I think a lot of the why parts. I still need to do most of the job. Um, I don’t think AI has caught up yet, maybe in a few years or maybe next year, I don’t know. But I think a lot of the strategy planning, a lot of the user psychology part is still requires human and experiences to make that happen, but AI plays a big role in my day-to-day.
You know, work life in terms of coding. So, you know, if I want to make a change on website, um, that’s not as simple as just, you know, changing color. I usually ask AI, say, Hey, I want this website to have this special section in the, can you give me A-H-T-M-L structure for me to play with? Simple as that. I don’t need to, you know, learn how to write JavaScript, HDML, uh, they’ll provide it for me.
So we kind of work like partners. I think about I, I strateg, I plan for the strategies and ai code it for me.
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah,
April Hung: Yeah.
Vision for Taiwan’s CRO Future
Aanchal Mahajan: I mean, AI is information out, right? It still cannot replace a human mind, but it surely can be a fabulous facilitator for a day-to-day experiments and even course. But let’s imagine there’s April, uh, let’s imagine it’s 2035 and Taiwan hosts Asia’s biggest experimentation summit. Uh, you tell me like what three milestones between now and then must be achieved to demonstrate that Taiwan is a CRO powerhouse.
I’m sure that’s.
April Hung: Three milestone. I think the big one would be actually, you know, everyone needs to know what it is and it needs to be as common as, you know, people knowing that I need to invest in Google ads and meta to get traffic. Um, we need to have that. Same knowledge for CRO. Like people need to know I need to invest in experimentations in order to drive my business and my conversion.
So that’s probably the first thing. And secondly is people need to get their hands in the tool actually, um, start using it and start, you know, actually testing. Because I think right now people, some people know CIO, but they’ve never tried it. They know the concept, but they never actually. You know, put their hands on the tool, use it.
And I think that’s the second milestone that needs to reach, is people need to start using it. And probably the last one, you know, when people start using it, they will be more creative about it and they probably come up with their own innovation. And that’s when, that’s kind of how AI start it. Like people start using a certain machine and they think, oh, this is too slow.
So. Um, invent their own machine. And I think that’s how technology works as well. So once people start using, you know, sale tools or they’re more familiar with experimentation, they will probably invent something better. Um, and I believe with, you know, Taiwanese people are usually quite techy. They, they work with technologies, so I am sure they’ll invent something, you know, incredible.
So,
Aanchal Mahajan: Yeah.
April Hung: yeah, three milestone, but we all gotta start with the first step is to promote experimentation and educate people what value it brings to the business.
Aanchal Mahajan: hundred percent for sure. Well, thank you so much. I mean, uh, really, uh. Great insight that you’ve given me about, uh, you know, the Taiwan industry altogether and where the CRO stands right now, uh, when it comes to Taiwan or even, uh, you know, Pania market in general. Right. Uh, time to switch gears for a rapid, uh, fire round.
Quick questions that answers. Are you ready?
April Hung: Uh, I’m nervous, but Okay. I’m ready.
Rapid Fire Round
Aanchal Mahajan: All right. If you were, uh, starting a career in CO today, what is the one thing that you would do differently?
April Hung: Ooh, starting a see our career, one thing I’ll do differently, um, um, I’ll make it more fun.
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm. Nice. One thing. Your non-industry friends still don’t understand about your job.
April Hung: so, sorry, can you repeat that again?
Aanchal Mahajan: Uh, one thing your non-industry friends still don’t understand about your job.
April Hung: Yeah, yeah. A lot of us still don’t understand what I’m doing, even my parents. They, they always when, um, relative ask them, Hey, what does your daughter do? And then they would say, oh, she worked with computers. And I was like, no. I mean, I, I need computer to work, but I don’t work with computers. I don’t build computers.
I, I’m not in it, but I’m, I think they slowly understand what I do. Now. Now when people ask them, they will be like, oh, I should design websites, which is slightly closer to what I actually do. So I would see that as an improvement.
Aanchal Mahajan: Hmm. Right. Uh, what’s your go-to travel destination?
April Hung: Uh, it’s hard. Um, I’m traveling to Turkey next month, so I’ll say Turkey.
Aanchal Mahajan: Okay, nice. Uh, if not CRO, what other profession you would have chosen?
April Hung: Uh, personal trainer.
Aanchal Mahajan: Oh, nice. Okay. And a goal you want to achieve in the next three years.
April Hung: Um. Expand my consultancy and just be a better and a more helpful person.
Closing
Aanchal Mahajan: Okay. That’s amazing. Well, that was fun April, and thank you so much for being such a support, uh, sport. Right. And, uh, I, I also understand, and I agree to most of what you have said, the most dangerous assumption is the individual is. That people believe what worked last quarter still works today, right? And if people start understanding that experiments are only to give you, uh, you know, unbiased data so that you can optimize your website, bring in more revenue, uh, that would surely help, uh, make the digital landscape even better.
Thank you so much, uh, for your time, and I look forward to, uh, you know, having such, uh, more conversations in, uh, the coming future.
April Hung: Thank you so much. I enjoyed our session.
Aanchal Mahajan: Thanks so much. You take care. Bye. Hi.
