UX Fundamentals for More Conversions

[NOTE: This transcript is pending review and, hence, may contain errors. The final, polished version will be available shortly. Thank you for your patience.]

[00:00:00] Arjun Kunnath: Hello and welcome everyone to ConvEx 2023, the annual online summit by VWO, designed for all those working in growth and experimentation. For those who might not know, VWO is a top tier conversion rate optimization platform. It’s your one stop solution for A/B testing, behavior analytics and personalization, all designed to supercharge your business.

[00:00:28] I’m Arjun, a product marketer here at VWO, and I’m thrilled beyond measure to host today’s workshop. I hope everyone’s still buzzing from the previous session. 

[00:00:37] Now, as we transition into this one, have you ever caught yourself wondering why certain websites just feel right while others seem to be stuck in a digital time walk?

[00:00:48] Well, Karl Gilis, our man of the hour is going to tell you why for those unacquainted with Karl, he’s not just another name in the UX world. Karl is the CEO of AG consult, an agency specializing in user research, customer centricity, usability, UX design and conversion optimization. 

[00:01:09] Over the span of two decades, he has carved a niche for himself transforming the way online businesses interact with their users.

[00:01:16] He’s a mentor, a critic and an educator who’s been tirelessly working towards creating digital world that resonates with its audience. So Karl, what do we have for our audience today? 

[00:01:26] Karl Gilis: Yes. Keep on going. Keep on going. , 

[00:01:30] What a nice introduction. Wow, good. Thank you. 

[00:01:34] Right, right. So what do you have for our audience today? 

[00:01:37] Could you just give a broad overview? 

[00:01:40] Brought over here. Well, I will start with a little bit of a rant about not learning things because I have the impression that in the 20 years I’m doing this business that we haven’t really moved a lot and then, of course, I will dive into some five fundamental tips, which I really think it’s principles. I will give practical examples. 

[00:02:03] Every tip will have three examples. But the tips themselves are more on a strategic level. It’s a mindset that you have and it will really help everybody attending this workshop to create a better website and a better website doesn’t mean a more beautiful website, but a website that the users love to use and it will lead to more people buying your stuff or filling in a request for offer or whatever the main goal of your website is. 

[00:02:32] Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. So guys, you heard the man. So engage, ask, interact. Let’s make this lively. Over to you, Karl. 

[00:02:38] All right, cool. So the first thing always in this conference is the awkward moment of sharing your screen. 

[00:02:49] There it is. Cool. So wow, this is an amazing introduction. I don’t have to tell a lot about myself but yes, we’re doing this for 20 years with aging consoles, especially the user experience. 

[00:03:03] Everything that has to do with user research because we really believe that, by putting the customer at the heart, at the center of everything it will help to grow your organization and luckily we do have some clients you might recognize some names that believe in the same path, the same goal.

[00:03:21] Now Enough about me. Let’s dive in those UX fundamentals for more conversions but before I start I want to do a little quiz with you just to see what kind of knowledge you have, where you are, what concerns UX in general. 

[00:03:39] I’m going to show you two different versions of the home page of Carglass. Carglass is known in some countries as Autoglass.

[00:03:47] I think in the US it’s called Safe Flight. It’s a company that is specialized in repairing car windows that have little chips, but also big cracks in it for a decent price. 

[00:03:59] Okay, let’s take a look I will show you the two versions and after that I will ask you which version do you think led to more conversions, more people in this case, making an appointment to fix that ship that crack in their window.

[00:04:13] So this is the first version. As you can see, there’s a lot of things going on this page. There’s a lot of text. It doesn’t have real focus point and what we know is that 68%, because that’s the research we did, come to the website of Carglass to make an appointment to fix that chip in their window.

[00:04:36] And this is the second version of the homepage. I’m sorry, I forgot to Google Translate it, but the text on screen says, where and wherever you want. We help you to find a service center near you or we come to your place. Make your appointment now. So that’s what it takes, which I call this the Zen version.

[00:04:53] There’s more focus on this primary call to action, make your appointment. It is repeated in the top right hand corner. 

[00:05:00] So the question is easy and I think the answer is also easy. Which version do you think led to more conversions, the text heavy version on the left or the Zen version on the right? And for those already answering in the chat, cool, but the people of VWO will now put a poll live where you can fill it in, it’s a version.

[00:05:23] It’s coming. Is the poll coming, my friends? The Carglass poll? Yes, there it is. Oh, it’s already busy. Nice. The zen version on the right is clearly a winner. We’ll wait for a few more seconds. I think the majority is voting for the Zen version on the right. 

[00:05:45] This is what we normally see when I do this on live stages. I also have about 80- 90% most of the time people voting for the Zen version. Okay, guys and girls, thank you for voting and I see more people in the chat saying version 2. So version 2, the Zen version is what really attracts most of you. So I think we’re finally ready to get this party, this workshop started.

[00:06:11] Although maybe it is not a party because, yeah unfortunately, but also it’s pretty normal because I see it everywhere where I do this little quiz with these versions of the Carglass homepage. The winner is the text heavy version. So about 10 people are now doing like, yeah I knew it, but maybe we were just guessing.

[00:06:34] The other people, yeah but it’s okay. I will tell you why it was a winner and the fundamental UX principle and what research we used in about 1 hour 55 minutes at the end of this session. But until then, please pay some attention. 

[00:06:52] As I said in the introduction, the first five minutes will be me getting a little bit angry on the past 20 years. Because I really think we have a problem and I’m going to illustrate this with one story, one case. I might sound as a boomer, I’m sorry. 

[00:07:11] But about 20 years ago in 2002, Els, arts and I, we wrote a little booklet with 101 tips for a better website and tip 58, you can see it here on the screen was… “Avoid zones with continually changing content” because what we noticed was more and more websites had an image with some text and a button on the homepage and after a few seconds a new image with a button and text came into place and so on and so on.

[00:07:36] We didn’t even have a name for that. Remember in those days Google didn’t even exist. Oh my god, yes, but now we have slider or a carousel. But what we also noticed was it fractured the user experience. 

[00:07:50] So we said, it’s not a good idea. 10 years later, in 2013, this website, Should I use a carousel? Not our website, by the way, but this website in general, saw the day of light and of course, the answer is no, you should not use a carousel. 

[00:08:06] In the same year, 2013, we did A/B test on the website of Suzuki, Belgium which we published, which was also presented at many conferences and I didn’t take a screen recording but you have to believe me that these three images there on the right hand side, they will move into place after a few seconds, so it’s really a slider in a carousel.

[00:08:29] The A/B test we did was very simple, I think, the setup. We used the same screen real estate. Where the slider was but now showed the four messages that were in the slider at the same time. So nothing was moving anymore on the page and the result was an uplift of 28% more people clicking on those banners. More than when they were hiding in the slider. 

[00:08:54] So we know sliders carousels are not good. Okay, we know it for 20 years. Now, let’s see what we have learned in those 20 years. Maybe we should look at the website of Suzuki, not longer our client anymore. And what do we see? Oh my God they have a slide. 

[00:09:21] When I see this my head goes like kaboom, exploding things. I’m not good at those mid journey prompts, by the way, because I had expected a more lively result than this one, but I tried to use some AI there. What frustrates me the most is and this is just one example that we as an industry, we are not really learning.

[00:09:41] It seems that we are always reinventing the wheel over and over again and the wheel, I think it exists for about 500 years and we know and we accept it as humanity, that a wheel is a rather good solution if you want to move something from point A to point B. I think we all agree, but what would we do?

[00:10:05] And with me, it’s not only the UX designers, it’s everybody involved with the website, it’s the developers, the designers, but also the copywriters, the marketers, the head of marketing, the CRO people. We think like, no, no, no. Maybe we should try a triangular wheel. Maybe it’ll work better.

[00:10:23] No, it’ll not work better. It’s shit and what we should be doing instead of reinventing the wheel is evolve the wheel and that is what continuous improvement is about what CRO should be about, but for now, I will stop with ranting about this and I will try to help you to find a solution and to get that mindset of user experience where user is the more important word and experience is also important, but it’s about the user.

[00:11:02] Principle one, don’t make me think. Yes, indeed and I was waiting for this. Karl, it’s Steven Krug’s book. It’s not you. No, I know. It’s the title of a book. It’s a fantastic book. It’s an old book. It’s also like 20 plus years old. 

[00:11:19] There are, of course, new additions with some mobile screenshots. It’s such an important book and the title, “Don’t Make the User Think”, is crucial. The basic idea of the book is that every element on your website or your app or your SaaS service, whatever you develop, should be as intuitive as possible and that the user may not lose one millisecond of his or her life by thinking like whoa, should I click here or there? How does a search work? And Stephen Krug, it’s mainly about interface. Also, I will stress that it’s also about the content. 

[00:12:06] But what is the return policy? Will there be some shipping cost involved? All these elements should be clear immediately and that is the basic element of don’t make me think. Everything should be as clear as possible. 

[00:12:20] If you have read the book, please read it again. Because when I look at most websites in the world, I don’t think you really understand what it means. If you have not read it, please buy the book and read it again. Read it at least two or three times every three or six months until you truly grasp the meaning of “Don’t Make Me Think”.

[00:12:41] Alright, let’s go to the practical examples here. The first one and you can give your feedback in the chat. This is a form, as you can see, it’s a simple form, it’s a basic form. I know there’s no call to action,don’t say that, but do you think this form, layout wise, usability wise, is okay, or is there something wrong with it?

[00:13:03] I want to see some of your remarks here in the chat, if possible. I think you will find the chat on the right hand side. Somebody says, Terrible! But what again? 

[00:13:16] Multiple reading directions? Yeah well I think street number, city and postal code can be on a button to submit. Yeah that’s also missing.

[00:13:26] It’s really about what we see. Just what we see. I know there’s a poor contrast. Yes, that’s true. Yes, postal code is different from country to country is very good. Remark label inside the field. What will happen when it could be shorter, not localized for company. Okay, many, many remarks.

[00:13:43] So it’s funny to see that indeed we can improve a lot of things on this field. I agree on the city thing because yes, postal code. I think also in Belgium you would put a postal code first. But the main thing I wanted to see and I’ve seen it a few times, should have labels outside the boxes. This is really what this example was about, what I wanted to stress.

[00:14:05] And it really is, don’t make me think and the moment that somebody enters a field, the label, full name, will disappear and then you have the possibility that the user will think like, Oh, was this the first name field? Last name field? Was it full name? Damn and that is really what usability and don’t make me think is about it’s a guideline.

[00:14:26] It’s also a Google guideline, a UX guideline. Put the labels above the fields. You can use floating labels if you want. Although we see during a beta set, floating labels most of the time are not as good as just putting the label. The label should always be visible. Of course, that is a very specific UX guideline.

[00:14:45] There are hundreds of them but I want to stress the basic ID, don’t make me think. Okay. Similar fields, similar form. Once again, don’t talk about the color contrast, the buttons and all that stuff. Yes. So the book is the, don’t make me think and there are several older books by Jacob Nielsen to answer that last question by Jess.

[00:15:08] There’s also a website called the Bay or Baymart institute. They have like lots of books with guidelines, UX principles that you can see. So, this time we have the placeholders in front of the field, I would put them above the field. But it’s about the generic layout of this field.

[00:15:26] Is there something that you would think like, N maybe this is not in order, maybe this can cause a little hiccup in the brains of the user. Yes? There’s a good remark from D Lin. You could put it to the right, if you have the label in front of the field, it’s a good idea to put it at the right.

[00:15:46] Doesn’t say what is mandatory. Yes. Somebody says number field. Yeah the zigzag. So several remarks. Again, the best thing especially is to put a label indeed up. Above the field. The elements are not group has also a valid remark. The point I wanted to make here, the number is confusing. It’s a street number.

[00:16:10] What we can have here is a problem is that people fill in the field and with the field number, they go like, Whoa, how big is that number, man? I thought it was like the number of my 71 or wait, maybe 1,355. So the box sizes at ease of understanding. Yes, Eric, that’s what I wanted to go to.

[00:16:37] The desired length of a field should indicate the desired input. Once again, this is a very specific UX guideline. I might talk, it’s not about the specific UX guidelines but I wanted to make clear that it all fits in the concept of don’t make me think and as you will go to big websites like Booking.com. This is an example of Booking.com. 

[00:17:00] You will see that they adhere to most of these kind of rules and in this case the label above the fields and so on. Second example and this brings me back to young Karl Gilis, we did a user test for this brand called Kipling and Kipling is specialized, in those days they only had handbags.

[00:17:20] We did a user test where we invited people to use the website and to observe what was making them happy and what makes them unhappy and struggling with the website. So people were using this website. They clicked on all the details. People loved it. But there was one thing that all users were missing on this page. They were like, yeah it’s good. 

[00:17:49] Somebody says price is small. It’s also true. Price would be bigger and closer to the ads to basket button but can you think what kind of information were people missing? Price and product description, the scale of a bag needs a model, how big is the bag needs context. 

[00:18:08] The zooming is there? Yeah here it is, the zooming was there. The product description, of course, was a bit lower on the screen. But yes what we see is what a lot of people here were saying, like, how big is the bag? It needs context and that is something we noticed and in the description, which was a little bit lower on the page, there was like, I’m just saying something 60 by 40 centimeters.

[00:18:30] But even then people were like, yeah but I want to and it was very clear that they wanted to see the back of the model as we nowadays have on most websites and this is yes, also delivery time is missing. 

[00:18:43] I agree with all the other things but this was really what people were missing and if you’re selling items, it’s very in size is important for those items.

[00:18:53] It’s important that you make it as easy as possible to understand. Like I said in this case there was like the dimensions in centimeters but people were like no I just want to see how big it is don’t make me think because you don’t want somebody thinking that he’s doing the deal of his life with this beautiful furniture woven carpet and then when it arrives in the mailbox it’s rather small.

[00:19:21] Now, the best example of this I have found on this website which, it’s a website where you can buy plants everything for your garden. But they had something which I thought was really smart. With every plant, they had a drawing that said how large is the plant when it is delivered. Lieferung in German, this is a German website, and how big will it maximum grow?

[00:19:44] And it’s so easy to see, you don’t have to think, it’s there. Oh, your brain can just relax and buy stuff without waking up and needing to see how big is it? How does it work? So that’s all, the idea of don’t make me think. 

[00:20:00] One last example and I have to watch the clock. I believe I will be okay. This is the landing page for a smart thermostat. As you can see, it’s a long page. There was about one scroll here. I’m pointing at the wrong screen. One scroll there, another scroll there. You can see my mouse. Yeah a little bit. You could see it moving. It’s a long page and the page started and that’s gray area on top is not in real life.

[00:20:27] It was not a gray block but it was like a auto video. So a video that started playing and explained how smart the thermostat was. What you see here is a click heat map. So you can see there is a little bit interactivity in the middle of the page there, the buy buttons. But the main point where people were clicking is right here.

[00:20:52] On top of the page you can see the red glow there. Can you imagine what was there? What are people clicking on? The down arrow? The play button? Yeah but the pause video button. Yeah because like I said, the video started playing automatically, so it was the pause button. 

[00:21:17] So people arrived on this page, video, pause button, bam! And when we look at the scroll heatmap we see similar behavior. We see that most people are visiting before starting to scroll.

[00:21:30] Also for me, this fits in the concept of don’t make me think that first two seconds on a webpage and especially if it’s a landing page here, people are coming from Google ads, but also if you ranked high in Google or Bing and people arrive on your website the first two seconds, what people see without scrolling should be bam! Spot on! 

[00:21:53] Don’t make me think. The answer for their problem should be there. It should be clear like, yes, this is where I need to be and not a video that starts playing and explaining these things. 

[00:22:03] So in this case, what did we do? We ditched the video and we put in place a photo of the smart thermostat and a unique value proposition.

[00:22:13] We also introduced a in page navigation because it was a rather long page but you can see now on the click heat map that people are clicking in the navigation and that there’s more activity here in the middle of the page where people could see if the thermostats would fit in their house, where they could order the products.

[00:22:31] Also here with the frequently asked questions, you can see that there’s more interaction and the scroll heat map shows the same thing. So you can see and it’s important by changing one element on the page, the top of the page because in this case, the top of the page was not working. It was not in order with the don’t make me think we saw it.

[00:22:52] The data proved right or showed us the problem replaced the problem with something else and it solved the problem. But that’s more conversion optimization, other people will talk about that. But I hope you understand the importance of don’t make me think. 

[00:23:10] Yes, good question there Christian. Should the information hierarchy not be changed based of this? As we can see most people scroll down or click in the navigation on, I think it was price or something, or how does it fit? 

[00:23:26] Yeah maybe that could have been I don’t know even if we tested it, that price, can it fit in my page, should be higher on the page. But definitely a good question.

[00:23:35] Could be a follow up research, could be a follow up test. Thank you. Second principle and it’s a little bit in order with that top video. Don’t shout for attention, give attention. 

[00:23:46] Also something I learned from what was 20 years ago, some of my heroes in the business, he still is but now he has become a friend, Jerry McGovern. I think he’s almost retired. He’s also the inventor of the original top task method and what he said at the conference and at that time I didn’t fully understand. 

[00:24:05] It was like. There’s a big difference between shouting for attention and traditional advertising is shouting for attention. Your billboard next to the road, your radio commercial but also your Facebook app they should grab my attention. 

[00:24:18] But once a customer is in your physical store or on your websites, you don’t have to shout for attention anymore. But you have to give attention to the user needs and a very good example of that shouting for attention is that slider because we have all these images coming into place and it’s everything that the company wants to talk about and they all want to push it on top of the home.

[00:24:40] We know sliders are bad. But once again, what did we do in our industry? Did we make the wheel better? No, no. We tried if a triangular wheel would work better and we came up with those background videos that used to be popular a few years ago. 

[00:24:56] This was until a few months ago the homepage of the biggest bank in Belgium, every month they replaced the video with a new video. Can you imagine how much money it cost? What we saw during user test was that some people put on the speakers or the earplugs because they were like, Oh, maybe those people are telling important stuff. No, it’s all a distraction. It didn’t add anything to the message on the website. 

[00:25:25] And when I asked the developers, why are you doing it? They said like you have a call but otherwise the website is so boring and there are so many big websites that do it. I was like, no, no. You won’t see these things on websites like Booking.com. 

[00:25:43] You won’t see it on websites like Netflix and Netflix is even in the business of selling you things that move on a TV screen. So video backgrounds are not good. It’s also shouting for attention. It’s a distraction. But in that case of Suzuki, where we had now four elements on the homepage, I was like, it’s too much stuff there.

[00:26:05] There are four cries for attention. So one of the things we tried there was like, okay, instead of those four messages, maybe we should reuse it. 

[00:26:16] Yeah Eric, that’s true. But that’s not on the website that’s in the fucking interface. I know what you mean. Sorry. So instead of the four messages on the Suzuki website, we now showed like two messages and what we noticed was there were many more clicks on those two banners than on those four banners together. Because we all know that less is more. It’s a very old marketing advice but apparently lots of people when it comes to their own website, they think like, no. Maybe for my website, more is more.

[00:26:55] Yes this isn’t and Ronnie, I will come back to your question in a minute after this chapter. I’m distracted now. This isn’t perilous. Should I look at my presentation or at all the movement in the chat. 

[00:27:08] But even on websites where there’s one huge banner, like in this case and it’s a French website with selling furniture. You can see they have this big, big banner on the homepage with super promotions 50% off, almost no clicks. 

[00:27:22] Most people are clicking in the navigation and the navigation was a very good navigation because it showed you the rooms, like the bedroom, living room, what does it say? Kitchen, also bathroom.

[00:27:36] So people can use the navigation because they will probably be like, I want a new sofa, so bam, I click on living room. No clicks on the big banner area. When we replace the big banner with one sentence, deal of the month 50% off on all products and a text link, you see that there’s more clicks on the text link than on the big banner in total.

[00:28:01] So it’s not because you make something big on the screen that people will click on it. You have to address the user needs. The shouting for attention doesn’t work and if you wonder Karl, why are you always showing screenshots of desktop? Well, here’s a screenshot on mobile but I think like mobile screenshots, it’s always so small on a screen and it’s not as we will see in the next step.

[00:28:25] By the way, it’s not about mobile or desktop, it’s about the user. So remember this one, don’t shout for attention but give attention. Veronica Harvey asked the question, is crawling something that you know co-related with goals like purchasing. Yes. In this case. So that was, let’s go back.

[00:28:48] How fast can I go back to that slide? In this case, the second part of the page, this area was like the by part of the page. He was like, does it fit with your house? Because apparently it has to do with the power, the electricity, whatever. I know I’m not a technical person. That is on the place where you want it to terms that any was like if you want to buy it. 

[00:29:12] In Belgium people want to buy stuff and this first one was if you want to rent it, how do you say it? Like a subscription service. So yes, there was in this case, a co-relation with the scroll mark because there was the point that people could buy the product and could go into the shopping process. 

[00:29:30] If that was the question, I’m not sure. Let’s continue to tip number three. Think customer first. It’s very related to the other ones. But this is user experience. It’s all about the customer.

[00:29:55] My first example is from Nespresso. This is how the website in Belgium looked or looks I’m not sure if they adapted it yet. It’s the main navigation. The main navigation of Nespresso starts with coffee. 

[00:30:09] Yeah Dutch is not that difficult. Then it folded open. It was a cascading menu where you have the original capsules with and also another link, which coffee suits me the best.

[00:30:20] You have the virtual paths with discovering the assortment and then this tells you about the coffee story, the recycling, the expertise and then in the main navigation besides coffee, they also had like machines, accessories, virtual and it spreads so easy. Our services, search, shop, our values, contact professional. Brain explosion. 

[00:30:46] So we did a little survey on the website which was based on the top task research of methods by Jerry McGovern. Where we asked people, Hey, what is the purpose of your visit to our website today? An open question. 

[00:31:00] What do you think that people are doing on the website of Nespresso? You can put it in the chat.

[00:31:06] It’s not a trick question. What are people coming for on the website of Nespresso? What do they like to do? Yes. Wow. They want to buy coffee. So can I ask you a follow up question? 

[00:31:22] What do you think? Maybe it’s different from country to country but that most people do. Will they buy completely new flavors every month or will most people just re-order their lost purchase?

[00:31:36] What do you think? It’ll probably show you how adventured you are of some countries. Yes. In Belgium it was about 80 or 90% the people that just wanted to re-order. So based on this information, we did an A/B test on the Nespresso website navigation. But the navigation was now, first one, order coffee, the second one, repurchase or repeat last order.

[00:32:01] Virtuo, which at that time was like their new capsules, their new pods. Then we had machines, accessories and all the rest was under the button more. You can see it’s a much clearer interface. I can’t say the exact number, I’m not allowed but it was a big winner for them. It’s a multi million dollar test, this one.

[00:32:23] You can see it also on mobile. This is the old mobile navigation. This was the mobile navigation on the test. You can see it’s much clearer. Don’t make me think. Where should I click? Don’t shout for attention. Oh, Karl, but I want to talk people about this story of our coffee and it’s think customer first.

[00:32:41] It’s the three principles mixed together. Second example of this. This is for a website where this was specialized. Let me try to explain the service. You go on the website you can request quotes and you will receive quotes from three providers for everything that has to do with all different things with home improvement, house renovation, installing new isolation or solar panels, all that stuff. 

[00:33:13] This was the process itself and it consists of three steps. The first one. As you can see, lokaas is location. Dutch is a very easy language. Two, project. Oh, it’s the same in English and three gegevens which is personal details. But once again I will ask you a question and you can put it in the chat. 

[00:33:32] If you want to do something like house improvement, home renovation, What is the first thing that you would like to talk about?

[00:33:39] Is it your location or is it the project? Ooh, is it a trick question, Karl? I don’t know. Maybe it is. Maybe it’s like the car glass question and I’m drinking into something. 

[00:33:51] Yes, of course! You want to talk about the project! So we did an A/B test where you need, step number one, was now the project. Step number two, the location because it’s important that you know that you get quotes from somebody who lives in your neighborhood and then three, your personal details and the number of successful submissions was of the, higher the conversion rate increased with about 10%.

[00:34:16] Now I’m always very happy when we do a test like this but I’m always a little bit disappointed that we have to do this like this because in my opinion everybody involved in the development of this website. I’m not sure if the one person that now says like location is trying to annoy me or not. But everybody involved in this project.

[00:34:47] Developer, copywriter, UX designer, head of marketing, business owner should have said at a certain moment in time like, hey stop, maybe we should think what our customers think is important. 

[00:35:03] It’s about their project, no? We should put the project first. I think that a lot of A/B tests that I see should or can be avoided if we all knew and applied and really understood those fundamental principles last example of this one and yes there will be another quiz coming up in two minutes.

[00:35:26] So people at VWO be ready, but first I will do the explanation. So this is the website of AutoCAD. AutoCAD is technical drawing software. The test was about engagement with the page. It’s a test. We’ve not done it. It’s by another company. 

[00:35:44] So they played with the thumbnails of the first two videos. In this first version, you see the headshots of the specialists, Rob and Ravi who will show you how to explore and visualize the 3D concepts with powerful intuitive tools.

[00:35:59] In the second version, you see that the thumbnail is now replaced with a technical drawing probably the result of that software. The text is almost the same. Its document faster, its design more flexible, like exploring visualized 3D concepts. 

[00:36:14] So, definitely the test is more about personal version, the specialist vs the software the technical detail. Okay, my friends at VWO, you can pull up. 

[00:36:31] Which version do you think led to more people engaging with the videos the headshots or the screenshots of the technical drawings. Ta da! Tension is rising in the room. Some people are answering in the chat, that’s also okay for me. It’s yeah cool. 

[00:36:52] This is what we always see. It’s so funny if I do it in live classes or on conferences or in this digital workshop. In this case, it’s always like kind of 50- 50. Votes are divided. Oh my god. But now thank you, you can do the poll away let’s go to the chat. 

[00:37:12] First the people who have chosen for the headshots, first you in the chat. Why do you think that was a better treatment? What is your reasoning behind that? Let’s go first. 

[00:37:26] A minute or two that those people can answer in the chat. Why did you choose for this one? Yeah people images are more engaging. The eyes will get grab focus. I think it gives you some more trust to see a human approach. Yes. Authenticity. Trust enhancer. Okay. 

[00:37:46] That’s what I’ve seen people click on in most cases, Eric. Yeah. Humans provide more reliability and authenticity and other people are saying you want to understand the features. Yes. So for now, those who have voted for B, the screenshot of the technical drawing, the result, why have you voted for that?

[00:38:09] Of course some people just guessed nothing wrong with that, Ali. Users don’t want to think, an image helps to understand the video quicker. Yes, you gave the solution, the other images are too abstract, yeah customers see what they can expect using the software drawings are not interesting to look at.

[00:38:26] So many people actually read the video titles and the read more thing, yeah shows what they will get. Yeah. Okay. Everybody is right, but some people are more right than others. 

[00:38:39] Now in this case, the winner was like the software, the drawing and I fully understand people have voted for the headshots but you have to think customer first.

[00:38:52] In this case, it is technical drawing software. People want to see how it works. They want to feel it and the test shows that in this case, a lot of users are probably afraid when they see Rob and what was the other name? Ravi? Rob and Ravi. When they see them they’re like, Oh no, there’s somebody’s going to talk for five minutes about this software and it will be blah.

[00:39:21] So in this case for this company, think customer first and somebody say it like Clemens, customer first. Users want to see, what the product is like, not what people try to sell and I think that is exactly spot on for this case. 

[00:39:46] This doesn’t mean, of course, that you can never use thumbnails with headshots because for a lot of services, more personal interactions, the headshots will work better than an abstract photo. But you have to think customer first and what we see here is that it is rather difficult. 

[00:40:07] Try to be more aware in the future and I’m sure the more and more you learn or you read those books and you look at websites and you see the results of a beta, try to understand why it was a winner. It will most of the time be in those three fundamental rules I already shared with you.

[00:40:26] Now let’s move on. Okay, I have another 20 more minutes. Timing will be precious my dear. In the talk, I also said like Karl will reveal the two questions that will change your marketing forever. Okay, I’m not sure it will change your marketing really forever but there are two important questions. You have to understand your customer and as we’ve seen in those examples, it’s not that easy to understand the customer. 

[00:40:56] So I have two series of questions that you have to ask. The first one is you have to really understand. Why do customers become your customers? Why do they want to buy from you? Why are they loyal fans? What do they like about you as a company? What do they like about the products or the services you sell? 

[00:41:16] And the best way to do it is just by asking them. By a survey. A one or two question survey. Three examples. The first one is of Yoast. Yoast is a popular SEO plugin for WordPress. WordPress is a very popular content management system used by millions of websites all over the world.

[00:41:35] Our goal for this host was to bring people from the free version of the plugin to the paid version of the plugin. This is the result of one year of working with them. We’re now doing a coaching program for them to make their internal team completely ready to do this conversion optimization themselves.

[00:41:56] One of our focus points was this page, six reasons to upgrade to Yoast SEO premium. We already had done some copy changes and then we started to do interviews and asking questions on the website. 

[00:42:08] Like, Hey, what do you like about Yoast? What were the main benefits you have from this product? What we had as a result and this is something we almost see with every company are two things. 

[00:42:22] First of all the order in which a company says, yeah this is why you should buy our product, is most of the time completely different. Then the order in which customers will place those plus points or important features and secondly, that’s why we always work with open questions, the wordings, the phrasing that people use is sometimes also completely different than the jargon, the words that companies are using.

[00:42:53] In the case of Yoast on the right hand side. Maybe people of VWO can make the screenshot maybe a little bit bigger but you will see, I’ve shared my slides with VWO, I don’t know if they will share it with you and I don’t know if somebody is able to make the slides a little bit bigger but on the left hand side, the first one in the list of Yoast was multiple focus keywords.

[00:43:15] It’s also after our user research, people said like, add focus keywords. The second thing you see there is redirects manager. In the list on the right hand side, you will not find the redirect manager but you will see in place number four, no more deadlinks and that is what people said when we surveyed their clients.

[00:43:37] Some people but a lot of people not said like redirect manager but most people said like, Oh, what I like about Yoast is that I don’t have any more deadlinks on my website when I remove or rename a page and then of course is the result of that redirect manager. But that is something that’s working in the backside of the site.

[00:43:56] What is now number two on the right hand side preview in social media was not in the list or the main list of features by Yoast because they thought yeah it’s a little head on but maybe not that important. They had something like, that as a paid customer, you will receive the new features first. Nobody cared about it. 

[00:44:16] So it’s really important to understand what moves the trigger for your customers and you should be open for that. 

[00:44:25] That sometimes it is different than what you as a company think. So just by changing this and make it more customer oriented once again, that’s the goal. Think customer first and so on.

[00:44:38] We saw an uplift of about 20-30%. Second example of this. Oh yeah I was thinking which one do I have in these slides? 

[00:44:51] This is a company in Europe making and installing selling car parts. This was the landing page. It’s in French but you see some images. There is a bullet list here. But in the bullet list it says like an aluminum structure. It also says like an unbreakable epoxy glass. You can see in the last bullet, Une garantie de design, which means like 10 year guarantee and when I see these things, I think like, yeah I’m not sure if that’s the main reason why people want to buy a car park. So once again, we did a little survey on the website where we asked one question.

[00:45:29] Hey, It was a landing page and why are you looking for a carport? Be as specific as possible and we also send out a survey to everybody who had bought a car port in the last 6 to 12 months with this fantastic question. Hey, if we would tear down your carport tomorrow. What would you miss the most? It’s a strange question.

[00:45:49] Response rate was more than 60%. Incredible and indeed, people were answering and the most common questions for both groups was like, oh, I hate to get into a bloody hot car in summer and I hate to scrape the ice from my windshield in wind. But people that were using or had their car parked, they also mentioned things like, oh no, then I have to unload my groceries in the rain again and yes to protect the torn vehicle, it will be covered with dust and leaves and branches and bleh. That was it. 

[00:46:23] Those were the main elements and based on that input from the survey, we changed the page and as you can see, it’s a new design but it’s not about the look and feel, although look and feel is also important but that first bullet list that you see on top of the page and I’ve made an enlargement of this. A Google translation was not about it.

[00:46:46] The features of the car port as it was in the old version but it’s more about the customer and their concerns and what their frustrations were with the current situation. Oh yes, are you tired of scratching the ice from your windows in the morning and to get into a bloody hot car, unload your groceries in the rain and that your car is always under the dust and damn, do you want to protect your darn vehicle?

[00:47:15] What this does is that people that click on an Ad think like, Oh yeah. This website understands me. That’s cool. 

[00:47:22] You bring them in a positive mood and of course, the rest of the page talks more about the product and bam, more people are now convinced to request the quote and this is something that people often forget. They talk about the solution immediately but you sometimes have to pinpoint. 

[00:47:39] Now, most of the time you have to pinpoint for most products and services, the problems, the frustrations, the situation where your customer is in. 

[00:47:49] Last example of this question of understanding my users. In this case, we didn’t do a survey but we used voice of Customer Research. The client was a UK based company called Vintage Cash Cow. The service is you have old stuff lying around in your house not really expensive antiquities but like old stuff. You can put them in a box. You send it to them. They evaluate it. They say your price. You say, okay, cool. They give you money.

[00:48:23] You say no, cool. They return the box. No ghosts involved. So it’s a nice, good service. People use it. They had 6,000 trust pilot reviews. So we were like, we don’t have to do a survey. We can do something with all these reviews we find online. So we did read them one by one. 

[00:48:43] No, we did a vocabulary analysis in general and we focused on the different words and sentiments between the unhappy customers, the one and two stars vs the happy customers, the four and five stars to try to understand what makes their happy customers happy and what makes the unhappy customers unhappy and what we learned was that the unhappy customers were dissatisfied because there was a mismatch between their expectations and of course the expectations were the result of what was being said in TV commercials, Facebook commercials and their website. 

[00:49:23] I’m trying to summarize this case. It’s a difficult one. But this is the old website where you can see we buy our old and vintage items for cash and then next to that there is David Hockney which is a TV antiques expert famous in the UK with the antiquity shows. 

[00:49:40] So it really gives an impression like, Oh my God, they will give very good value for the things I will send in and also you get this guy with glasses like watching probably an expensive watch and lower on the page there were also testimonials and one of them was a person who had received enough money to buy a first class business ticket to the United States. 

[00:50:06] Mind you, the service was in UK to reunite with a lost family member. Oh my God. But in fact, the average value of a box is about 47 British pounds. So it was not about the big antiquities.

[00:50:20] It is really about selling your old stuff. So based on the research, the analysis of the happy and the unhappy customers, we help the company to reposition themselves to make it more clear what the service is. We have made new cases. We changed the scripts for the TV commercials and the result was and yes, I know that the layout is still not very fancy.

[00:50:44] I know. The service is also oriented that people older than 60 years old and mind you, the design of Google is also not very fancy but it worked. We now had from people coming from Facebook ads and the TV commercials, 20% more customers. 

[00:50:58] We saw an increase in customer happiness. We saw a decrease in customer unhappiness and of course, because we had to send less boxes back to the people, there was lower costs and higher revenue. 

[00:51:09] So these were two examples or three examples of how you can try to really understand your customers. Ask them by interviews or surveys or if you have lots of reviews online, analyze the reviews.

[00:51:25] The other question is the opposite. Try to understand why people don’t buy from you. What are their doubts? What are the hesitations? 

[00:51:33] Why the hell do people not upgrade from the free version to the premium version? And once again, we asked it and people who are using the free version, they said yeah it’s too expensive, the premium version. 

[00:51:48] Yeah. Okay. But one of the other common answers was and mind you, this was an open text field that people said yeah I’ve been working with that free version for a while now and it’s really good but I’ve put a lot of work in it. If I buy that premium version, do I have to do all that work over again?

[00:52:05] And both we and the people at Yoast were like Pooom! Of course not. Of course everything you’ve done will be migrated for you. But people were afraid of that. They are not technical savvy people. 

[00:52:17] So on this page you can see the original on the left hand side and there’s a variation on the right hand side. We added one sentence. All plugin settings will be automatically migrated to Yoast as your premium for you, so you keep all the work you’ve already put into your free plugin. 

[00:52:32] We took away the fear, we presented them the solution and bam, sales went up with 9%. You could never find this with an internal brainstorm. You have to do your research there and also for this one, this is an eCommerce website in Romania.

[00:52:50] I don’t speak Romanian but I know what’s there because it’s one of our surveys. So it’s on a product page. We ask people did you find everything you want to know about this product? If not, what was missing?

[00:53:00] And then the third question, most important for this kind of research is, what is holding you back to order this product today? And in this case, for this web shop, in this country, the two main objections were, can I trust your website? I don’t know your brand. 

[00:53:19] Indeed, it was not a very known brand. So that was hesitation. Number one, can I trust your brand? And secondly, the webshop was telling us you can see sports shoes, sports clothing. There’s a lot of counterfeit fake material there and maybe in some companies even more than other. 

[00:53:36] So the second objection was like, is it really an official Adidas or is it an original Nike that you’re selling?

[00:53:43] So these were the two main objections or problems why people were not buying. So to counter this, we added the image viewer, this 100% guaranteed, original guarantee and below the call to action because we found a website in Romania something like Trustpilot, called trust.ro and they had 5,000 very positive previews there.

[00:54:07] So these two elements took away the fears of most people, yes you could also add a trust badge, good remark there. Took away the fears of the customer and sales went up. Now, I know that some of you are thinking like, oh, I’m gonna copy this. No you cannot copy this. 

[00:54:26] Well, you can but it’s probably not a good idea because you have to find out what are the main reasons for your webshop or for your website in general that people are not buying your stuff and then you have to counter that. Don’t copy the tactic, copy the question, copy the strategy. 

[00:54:46] I’m going to skip the last example. It’s more of the same stuff but otherwise we don’t have enough time for maybe some final Q&A’s.

[00:54:54] So take away fears and barriers is important. It’s important to understand why do people buy, why don’t they buy and now let’s go to my last tip. Focus. Focus. 

[00:55:06] Once again, it also has to do with don’t make me think put the customer first. Remember the Nespresso Navigation overload. Your brain is like exploding and you think like, where do I have to look at? 

[00:55:21] So the trick is or the art is to take away everything that doesn’t add value to the page, that’s difficult and to conversion and to leave those elements or maybe add elements that add to the clarity. There’s an old model from Chris Gower, I think it’s from also the early 2000s.

[00:55:42] It’s called the lift model and I think it’s still very valuable. It’s like everything that is a distraction on a page, everything that creates anxiety, the fears, the barriers will drag your conversion down. So you have to remove those elements. So you have to solve them by putting only relevant information on their page and by adding clarity.

[00:56:08] Now, what a lot of designers think that clarity is like minimalistic design. No but that’s what we often see that pages would have so many elements removed that you don’t have a clue what the company is doing. 

[00:56:22] “Win clients for life with Copper. Focus on what matters most, growing your business. Copper will take care of the rest.” Yeah but what are you doing? Why should I choose for you? What is your specificity and what kind of industry are you in? Nothing gives it away. That’s also something we see, too general to generic things. So it’s not about that. It’s about understanding.

[00:56:49] Yes, wider Graphic. Wider Funnel was the name, was it? Yes, it’s a previous company, now it’s Conversion.com. Wider Funnel, indeed, steven. Yes. 

[00:57:02] I’m not a big fan of that book, You Should Test Everything. It’s good for big countries, but it’s not so good for smaller ones. But that’s a different discussion.

[00:57:10] Let’s go back to young Karl Gilis. The example is in Dutch. This was a Suzuki website, request for quote, as you can see, a rather long form, about 13 fields and the young Karl Gilles was also like okay we have to remove stuff on the page. 

[00:57:27] We have to make the form shorter. So I made the form shorter. In this case, I think I reduced it and we only had one, two, five fields. Yes. Conversion rate went up and I thought, yeah I nailed it. Suzuki didn’t think so. 

[00:57:46] After two weeks I got a very angry call from them, what have you done? And I was like, come on, I helped you. Conversion rate went up. They said yeah but the quality of these leads is so bad.

[00:57:57] We can’t send out an offer without calling those people, without contacting them. That takes a lot of time and at the end apparently, Suzuki didn’t sell any more cars. 

[00:58:07] Well, they did sell cars but not more cars than before my intervention. So then I went back to the drawing board and that’s when I learned that there were tools called form analysis tools. One of them is now called Zuko, which I really like. They will give you deep insights in forms. How many corrections there are in a field? In which field exactly people drop off from your form? Oh, that’s a ton of information. So in this case, we found out as you can see that the dealer field caused a lot of corrections.

[00:58:36] That’s a usability problem but now we knew there was a usability problem, so we could solve it and then the package field which is like, choose your option package. 

[00:58:45] Yes Zuko, good. Thank you Ali, for answering the questions but about 25 people, 25% of people that dropped off in the form, they dropped off in this specific field.

[00:58:57] So we call Suzuki, no that field is not necessary. We can always add the option fields at the add on page. So based on that information, mind you, this is a very old example. 

[00:59:07] Nowadays, there would be a car configurator, of course. Left hand, the old version, right hand, the new version. I applied a lot of basic usability principles, reordered some of the fields, made it a bit more clear with all those basic form rules.

[00:59:23] By the way, we have a three hour training just on forms alone. We took away the choose your option field. We even added one extra field. “Do you have extra remarks?” And open field and conversion rate went up with 43% because we fixed the problems and that’s important. 

[00:59:40] Remember the video that was all the playing user data. Yes, it’s about user experience but the tools that will give you insights in the user behavior on the website will help you to see what the problem is and then I’m sure you’re smart enough after reading the books and following this workshop and other workshops to use your brainpower to see like, not in line with that fundamental principle, we should apply this one and maybe this is a better treatment.

[01:00:09] Second example and we have another poll coming up in a second, so VWO guys, be ready. This is a shopping cart. As you can see, two versions, left hand side, right hand side. Please, don’t pay a lot of attention on the red button, that is now an orange button, I have no idea where in the process that happens one of these is doing better than the other one.

[01:00:31] What do you think? Is it the de-cluttered version on the left hand side? Now we can have the poll or is it the one with more information on the right hand side. Does the information no, I gave it away but maybe you’ve not seen it. Do we have a poll? Yes cluttered version, so yes, you’ve seen it. My mistake. 

[01:00:57] So you don’t have to show the poll, my friends. Yes. So the left hand version, yes this was not good. The left hand version was the original version when we started to work for this client and once again, we did the survey, Hey, what is holding you back?

[01:01:14] And people started answering like, do you accept American Express? Do you accept MasterCard? Whatever. People also wanted like, when does it ship? Is it still in stock? What is your return policy? So all these elements, all these fears and barriers we tried to counter with those extra information here on the page itself, which indeed, as you’ve seen, increased the sales on mobile a lot.

[01:01:44] So it added trust. So it’s a one for me, but that’s 20 years of experience. Probably the fundamental rules are pretty clear. For a lot of people, it needs a lot of websites to look at and I hope that one of the things you will probably do after this workshop is when you go to a Booking.Com in Europe, Zalando in the UK, I don’t know what are the best websites, most popular websites to just see what are they doing and when you go to a process and you think like, it’s going smoothly, just go back and watch the elements on the screen to really understand it, the design and what copy elements help you to move fluently through the funnel. 

[01:02:30] Is it recommended to have a different design for mobile and desktop? No in general, no. As I said for me, the basic idea is think customer first and probably I don’t like to think mobile first as such but try to start from a smaller screen and it’s not because you have a bigger screen that you have to add more elements. No, the smaller screen is good. 

[01:02:55] Just use the same elements on the bigger screen. So not a different design. Sometimes maybe the layout will be yes but I think that little spec Roni is not the screenshot. It is my mouse on the other screen.

[01:03:09] Look, but thank you for noting it. I don’t know why the mouse is there. It’s my curse. Yes. Last poll. This is an A/B test done by another company. It was done on a hotel website. So from a hotel itself and they thought we don’t want everybody going to Booking and Expedia. So we will do a live price check so on the hotel website itself, we’ll show the price and the price is always the best price. 

[01:03:44] Put this widget there, the live price check. Now, I don’t know if the people at VWO are still alive and kicking. Can we have the poll or you can put it in the chat? What do you think? Adding this element on a page, did it improve conversion or did it not?

[01:04:04] Thank you for the information. So, it was like 30- 40 people saying like, the price and some people said no it killed conversion. Well, in this case, it killed conversion with about 10% and I think it is because it is about the price but the price difference is so big that some people will think No, I’m not really believing this and they will click on it or go to Booking.com they will go to Expedia or maybe this widget reminds them like, Oh, I still have like 50 credits left at Expedia. I should go there. 

[01:04:36] Then it’s about the same price. So it’s causes, like I think and it’s easier when you see the results, the distraction, it doesn’t really add clarity. It adds confusion. It’s like, don’t make me think and this causes me to think it’s pulls me out of my automatic mode and it brings me into like, really, is it so much cheaper? And then the moment is over but as you can see. It’s difficult. UX is difficult but I hope that these elements will really help you to create better websites.

[01:05:11] My final conclusions. Have the right attitude. Be open. Don’t think that you are always right. Understand, apply those fundamental UX principles. Do your user research. Ask those two questions to really understand your users about your company, your products, your services. Take away those fears. Solve the frustrations.

[01:05:35] Don’t ask yourself, what is my goal? What is the goal of my visitors? What is holding them back? And that is also the answer to the Carglass case. This was the website of Carglass when Carglass became our client. About six years ago, they’re still our client. When I looked at that page, I was like, it’s a good page because 68% of people come to make an appointment.

[01:05:59] It is a good page but then somebody in our team who is smarter than me said, yes, Karl, but 68% of people say they come to make an appointment but we see in analytics that not 68% make an appointment. That’s why we started asking that question.

[01:06:13] Hey, before you go, what is the most important reason you didn’t make an appointment today? And people started answering and they said like, yes how much does it cost? Is it covered by my insurance? Yes or no and how does it work with the paperwork? Do I have to pay you and then try to get my money back from the insurance company?

[01:06:32] And if you have, do you give warranty on that work? And if you have to replace my window, will it be the same quality as if I would do it with my car dealership? And where the hell is there a car service center next to me? 

[01:06:47] And as you can see. These were the main objections that people typed in when answering the question, why did you not make an appointment?

[01:06:55] And we took away those fears. So every element on this page is not adding clutter but it’s adding clarity and this is really important. I know when you just look at the page, of course the Zen version is the most beautiful one but your website is not about being the most beautiful one, it’s about the one that works best for your users and that is what it means to put your customers at the heart, at the center of everything and that was my session, my friends. 

[01:07:25] Arjun Kunnath: Karl, because the session was simply amazing. We’ve decided to extend by five minutes. So if at all anybody has any questions. Any questions at all?

[01:07:37] Karl Gilis: What was the impact of removing the sales phone number? Yes, that was on the Romanian website, the sports website. Good question, Steven and that I have forgotten because I think it was a good remark. I can ask but not now. Joey, who is our analyst and who did the test? Yeah, good question.

[01:08:01] I think we did it in two ways for the carport side, did you reach sufficient sample size for your experiments? Yes, we did. In those days, I think today we would have a different approach to that but yes because the difference was so big, it was indeed enough for that one. It’s also why we did it on the French version of the website and not the Belgian version of the website.

[01:08:28] For exiting 10 pop ups, is it better to ask a question or make a discount offer? Good. I would always ask a question. I don’t know the discount offer. Yes you can do that but I think understanding your customers is really important. What we now try to do for most of our clients is on the thank you page but that’s when a sale is successful to integrate a survey that’s always there.

[01:08:53] The question for the exit pop up what is holding you back to complete your purchase today or to order the product or whatever phase you’re on and the other one is like for customers. Why did you become our customer or what do you like about our product or feature. How are survey customers typically just mass email?

[01:09:18] No, we do it mostly on the website. So the car port was an exception. We mostly do it on the website on B2C websites. We mostly see a response rate but it’s a pop up between five and 15%. If it’s like a little slider, it’s only 1% on B2B websites. It’s between 2 and 5%. The fault doesn’t exist!

[01:09:45] Oh no! Candice, no! The fault does exist. I proved it! The fault as such doesn’t exist but what people see in their viewport being on desktop or on mobile, is really important whether people will engage with your content, with your screen. Yes or no. So in that thing, yes, the fault does exist. Otherwise, Jacob Nielsen will kill me.

[01:10:10] How do you ensure applying UX principles to websites or in regional languages? Most UX principles are rather universal. There is a difference in color use worldwide but most principles are really basic. There’s nobody in the world to say, no, I want my website to make me think I want to be confused.

[01:10:33] I want to see a lot of clutter and distractions on a page. So the basic principles are the same and I think that’s about it because I see, are you looking at me like guy, you will not stop ever. 

[01:10:47] Multi step vs long form? No, most of the time your form has bigger problems than the multi step vs long form.

[01:10:54] But in general, I’m a fan of a good multi step. Yes, load speed always impacts conversions. There’s a good talk from Jono Alderson and Arnaud Hellemans about the impact of load time on conversion. 

[01:11:17] Yes. I think that’s it for today. I think you liked it. When I saw the reactions, they’re now gone with all the questions you had. Oh, I see the applause.

[01:11:29] I hope you loved it. I hope you have some takeaways. As I said, you will receive a recording of access to the recording later on. So enjoy the rest of this amazing conference. Thank you for having me. Everybody have a good evening for me its evening or a good day if it’s morning or whatever you’re doing See you later.

[01:11:49] Bye bye. Thank you very much. 

[01:11:51] Arjun Kunnath: Thank you you so much Karl for sharing your knowledge and experience with us and guys thank you for being an active and engaging part of this enlightening session so if you have any more lingering questions or thoughts, I’m sure Karl wouldn’t mind if you reached out to him directly, right?

[01:12:10] See you there. Awesome. Cheers. Thanks. 

[01:12:12] Karl Gilis: Ciao. 

[01:12:13] Arjun Kunnath: Bye. Bye