Attract Customers By Speaking To What They Really Value
This presentation will walk you through a case study of how a company applied JTBD theory to understand what consumers really wanted.
Varun: Hello! Welcome to ConvEx where we are celebrating experiment driven marketing. I am Varun Grover and I work as a Technical Support Engineer at VWO. You have broken funnels? Don’t worry about that. Try VWO. Today, we have with us Alan Klement who is a partner at Revealed and he is also an author of a renowned book called ‘When Coffee And Kale Compete’. And I’m really excited to have you with us Alan.
Alan: Thanks for having me. I’m really excited to talk today.
Varun: Really, it’s a pleasure to have you. Also before Alan starts his presentation, I would just like to mention that you can join ConvEx’s official group on LinkedIn. And if you have any questions related to this particular presentation, you can go ahead and ask the question on the group. And with that Alan, the stage is all yours.
Alan: Okay, great. So today, I’m going to talk about a new topic that I’ve been working on for a while and so I’m very excited about sharing this with you all today. So today’s topic is kind of digging deeper into understanding what’s valuable to consumers, and understanding about what they’re really paying for and searching for when they’re out there shopping for new products and services. And I want to illustrate how when you speak and acknowledge the different types of value that consumers want, your conversion rates will go up, you’ll get more people coming to your product, first of all. And of course secondly, you’ll know how to best optimize and develop your product. So that’s today’s topic. It’s attracting customers by speaking to what they really value.
So I’ll begin with ‘Why should we care?’’ Why should you consider even thinking about spending the time of digging deeper into what consumers really value?
I’ll start with this claim which is – I believe that the era of easy wins is over – and I’ll explain that with an example.
This is, if you all remember right depending on your age, I certainly remember this, this is what Gmail looked like when it first launched back in 2004. The story of Gmail is, you know, short version is (it took about 12) it ended up at the end being about 12 engineers and took three or four years to develop?
And when it launched here’s what it looked like:
And if you were around at the time you were probably using Hotmail or some other similar service.
And if you also were around that time you remember the killer feature of Gmail that blew everyone away. And it’s actually here in the street somewhere if you know where it is, but if you don’t I’ll point it out right here: It’s that down there.
Basically Gmail distinguished itself from the competition and pulled itself away from the competition by offering one gigabyte of storage. Now that seems kind of laughable, but at the time that was a substantial competitive advantage; that was a differentiator in the market at a tremendous scale. I think the most other email accounts at the time we’re offering 50 or even a hundred megabytes.
So that’s how Gmail separated from the pack, how it attracted customers, and really ended up being a crucial part of dominating the market.
So what’s the solution to this? How do we kind of escape this or get around it?
And that’s kind of the topic of today is I believe that we need to become better at understanding demand. Now what I mean by that is all aspects of demand: what demand looks like, how its generated, how consumers react when they have experience or they have demand for a product or service, how that demand grows, how it dissipates or shrinks or goes away. So I think that we have to escape of just being focused on functional needs of consumers and really dig deeper to actually the value and understand the dynamics of demand.
So what’s blocking us (right) from making this progress? Well, over the years as I’ve been working with numerous companies and teams and individuals to get better at understanding demand, I have observed various diseases and biases that hold everyone including myself and hold us back from understanding demand and knowing what to do about it.
So today I would kind of want to reveal disease number four (I call it) and it’s this (right) – it’s reducing what customers want to just a list of needs. And in doing so you ignore the different types of value that consumers will pay for. So what do I mean by all that? Lets make this tangible. So I’ll give an example of a company that I’d worked with recently called Model Basics and here is their story.
Model Basics began with this woman, Emily. Historically, she was a model herself and she observed a need in the market (right) which was (would be) underwear for models when they are either on photo shoots or doing runway shows right? There was a need there, she analyzed it based upon her experience, and then offered a product into the market and started a business called Model basics.
So the original (kind of) concept and imagery associated with her company and the product, as you can see here, was this is two important things I want to point out here: first, it was featuring women who kind of fit the typical model look (right), so like a size 8 woman. And if you look at the photography it’s very much focused on the product. It’s showing the product without really any context other than some woman gazing out the window in a kind of very aspirational or forlorn way, right?
So that was kind of version 1 of the product. And again, you know, the website material was very much focused on illustrating the product itself and (kind of) the functionality of that product. Right? So (that was) you come to website and this is the kind of stuff you see. So what did Model (you know) Basics want to do? Well, they wanted to grow like every other organization, they wanted to attract more customers, right? But they also want to make sure that they’re understanding demand correctly in the market, right to understand it they know how it’s generated, what that demand looks like, and kind of why a product like their own would be hired to meet that demand.
I did some research and the findings are actually pretty extensive, but I’m not going to limit it to just a few points here. So key inside number one was most women buying from Model Basics actually weren’t models. That was first insight. Second one, over 50% of customers who had purchased products from Model Basics actually were anticipating some event coming up. Usually like some formal event, or a wedding, something of that nature, where they kind of explained that well for this future event coming up a regular bra isn’t going to work for me.
And so in a kind of as you mentioned here are some examples of you know, that maybe I’m wearing some sort of backless dress, or perhaps I’m going to be wearing a wedding dress with a lot of lace in the front and the back. And in these circumstances a regular bra won’t work for me.
Third key insight is over 88 percent of consumers (which is overwhelming right? were coming to here right?) really they have this goal in mind of yeah, I want the bra and you know all the functionality associated with it. But (really) this is really more about me kind of being able to confidently wear clothes that can reveal my back and shoulders. So it was really less about the bra but more about being able to wear new types of clothes, which historically they could not do.
And the last two insights, I want to point out here are: about 50 percent of consumers had expressed worry about the adhesive bra not sticking right and being reliable while wearing so again, very functional. And then the other also, they expressed a concern about the fit. So that’s basically matching the body size and the body content with what the bra can actually support. So, there’s a lot of stuff in there, but I kind of want to help you organize all those insights to actually two types of goals. And this is really what we’re getting to the point of this presentation is highlighting the two different types of value that consumers are searching for or appreciate in a product.
We could split them up into two sections. Right? One is before things like what stick on reliably, what will be a correct fit, there were concerns about will the color of the bra match the rest of my outfit, that’s kind of one bucket of value that consumers were concerned about. But then the other one was of course that what I mentioned before as well, you know, they actually want to start wearing a new type of wardrobe right? I actually want to reveal my back more or I want to start wearing clothes that have a lot of lace. So it’s the stuff around kind of changing or expanding my wardrobe options. So I like to categorize these goals in the two buckets one bucket is I call it usage goals and the other bucket are called change goals( I call it change goals.) Now if you want to do more research into this, these are based upon models. So if you go up and research psychology of goals, for example, you won’t find usage goals and change goals, but you’ll find what are called outcome goals, not usage goals and change goals.
I call these usage goals and change goals because that just makes it more relevant to you all, an audience like yourself. You’re not academic psychologist studying, you know, the broad category of goals. You’re looking at goals in the context of markets and buying and selling products and product design.
So I separate these into 2 categories: usage goals and change goals. And give you a more comprehensive understanding of the characteristics of each (look at it this way.): So usage goals are associated with the product use. So basically it’s, think about like, when I’m using the product or when I’m using it, I want to make sure that the color is not in dissonance (right) with the rest of what I’m wearing, right? So all these kind of goals that they have when using the product. The other characteristic of this of usage goals are they’re frequently repeated, right? And they have a distinct start and stop. Right? So when, and that’s kind of where that ‘when’ clause kind of helps us understand the context, right? So it’s like when I’m wearing a wedding dress, or when I’m at a cocktail party and wearing a halter top,( right) something of that nature. It’s very distinct. The goal is only relevant in the context of the product.
And of course, the last point is the goal itself is only relevant when actively engaged. So I kind of have this visual here; (like) think of it as kind of a very defined start and stop, it executes and then the goal is no longer relevant to me until it gets activated again. And it’s going to probably be activated the next time I use the product or similar products.
So now Change goals. Change goals, also known as process goals, actually are describing how the consumer changes as a result of adopting the product.
So again, it’s the old me, in this context of Model Basics, is what the old me is (well, you know, I) my wardrobe options are this big (right?). But the new me actually has expanded my wardrobe options and now I can wear all different kinds of clothes that maybe I couldn’t wear before. So I can wear clothes that reveal my back, I can wear lace tops, or I can get that wedding dress that may be historically I would have avoided because you know, I was concerned about the color or the fit and so on so forth. So I can do things that I couldn’t do before.
The other characteristic of change goals is there’s no distinct start and stopping here. Again, it’s like you’re changing the consumers’ life situation some way. There is no distinct, you know on Monday, I don’t wear (clothes that I’ve done) certain types of clothes, and then Tuesday I can, and then Wednesday I don’t wear certain clothes again, then on Thursday I can. It’s not working that way. It’s basically once you make that change it’s this process, it’s this and I guess the next point, it’s always on, it’s always active.
Oh and I got to get the other point too which maybe I should add in here is that it’s actually outside of the product. So wearing a new wardrobe is actually a goal that expands and exists outside of just the product usage itself. Again, some examples of the usage goals: Will it stick reliably? Is the fit going to be correct? Will the color match? Whereas the change goals examples, different types of value or seeing here are: I can start wearing clothes that reveal my back, and I can wear clothes that have a lot of lace for example, or a lot of transparency in it.
So through understanding these two types of value that consumers are willing to pay for and are kind of curious about and want – how did Model Basics change? Well, first, pretty substantial pivot to the business model, (right) and even adopting a new product name, or a new company name. So the old way is Model Basics where the reason that goes with it is – ‘Welcome to Model Basics. We provide quality, essential basic underwear designed specifically for fashion professionals’, right? So, that’s what business that they were in. But with this new insights, actually we recognized not only a different market but a much more massive market, (right,) which is thinking of their company as being Backless Basics itself, and their business is providing quality, essential basic underwear designed to inspire confidence. So that was really a substantial change in the business. So their Market went from (you know, this big, you know, okay) just models who might be attracted to this kind of situation to potentially every woman out there, right?
So some more tangible changes that they made:
Probably one of the most visibly easy changes was visually in the website, the content they used to promote the product. So again, the old way is a sizing woman and the photography was all very product-focused. So you always saw a picture of the woman wearing the bra or underwear, and you could tell exactly how the product fit and how it fits in, and you can see exactly everything. Whereas the new way is actually, and you can see, if you notice what’s interesting, they don’t even show the product. First of all you notice that you don’t see the product at all in the new photography, but that’s part of the one obvious change. So they change it right from showing the product to actually showing the consumer in the future because of the product right? So now you are wearing a wedding dress you always wanted to wear, or now you’re going to these parties and wearing these stand-out outfits that you couldn’t wear before. That’s part of the first obvious change.
And the second change is that they wanted to show that it’s not just for one particular body shape. That it’s really for (kind of all) body shapes, right? So they moved from a size 8 woman to a size 14 and 16 woman.
So again the other things that they’re doing here – so now this is from a product design point of view – by kind of thinking about the two different types of value: usage goals and then change goals that actually help them think about how to design their product differently and how to optimize differently their product. So they (kind of) came up with like say three variations: you’ve got the lace bra right which is more geared towards special events like a wedding, or maybe even wanting to wear that particular top like that, or there’s the night-time halter top scenario where it’s part of more of a formal gown, or the other kind of tight and kind of fitting version of the product.
So these are actually three different products they have here. But all for different situations around kind of these different change goals that these kind of consumers are striving for. (So that was may change that) so they’ve changed some of the promotional material ( right?): How do we position the product? How we advertise the product and get people’s attention? How do we design the product? So now we’re seeing kind of the first one’s very much focused on change goals, changes to the product or around usage goals, right? Because you know, (if I’m just maybe) if I’m using the product on a wedding day scenario, or using it for transparency or lace, then things about the color of the product would be more important to me. So that goal of ‘will it match the rest of what I’m wearing’, that goal is more relevant than (you know,) if I’m wearing perhaps a casual black t-shirt or something that’s going to be over that, or like a tight-fitting top, or the color is not so much important as (in) a particular fit, because it’s going to be very form-fitting.
Next is of course how their advertising channels and how they promoted it in their advertising. So again, they changed it and kind of pretty obvious here speaking to (you can wear right there right) ‘Wear your dream dress with confidence,’ right? You can now start wearing types of wedding dress that maybe previously you would have ignored or thought wouldn’t be possible. And of course the other advertising here is basically ‘Home of the backless bra’, really just emphasizing that this is what business Model Basics is at. And of course changes to to the home site, right where emphasizing different types of bras for different situations, as opposed to again focusing on models who want to use it when they’re on a fashion shoot or doing a runway show.
So the numbers well, the first month that they launched here is the numbers that this company reported. First off was a decrease in the bounce rate. This is pretty substantial: 88.5% down to 51%. It’s just a massive reduction in the bounce rate, right? Because now they know how to target more effectively. So they make sure that they know that they’re targeting the right people, and that their message actually kind of align the product and how it’s advertised and promoted on the website is actually very much aligned with how they’re kind of advertising in their advertising material.
So you can look at the numbers deeper yourself, but basically everything goes up. There’s better conversions, bounce rate goes down. more engagement, so on and so forth. So that’s you know really the point I want to make here is – there’s actually multiple types of value right that consumers experience. I didn’t go into all of them, but I just focused on two which is the usage goals and the change goals. And I really would encourage all of you to think about your service within that context as it will guide both marketing, I mean not both all marketing, strategy, product, design, how you look at markets and competition, how you define potential consumers and shoppers, how do you appeal those shoppers, and just the whole spectrum. These two types of value will help inform everyone in those roles.
So, of course the next thing is, how do we get started?
Well, the first thing I want to say is, of course, I think you really need to identify and keep separate usage data from the change data. You not only want physically keep them separate – physically, your data collection methods you just want to commingle those right? – but also conceptually. So, you know like for example, sometimes with with customers or clients, we might run a survey that will include, that will gather data around change goals and also usage goals. But then once we spit that out in our analytics, we actually separate those and then keep it separate. We show the relationship but we don’t commingle all those together. We keep it separate because they’re different models of value to consumers. So the first thing to do is recognize that there is a difference conceptually, and that when you go about searching and organizing those data and communicating then make sure that you keep it separately also.
Next thing is when you go about gathering these data you actually gather them differently. You can use some of the same methods, you can do consumer interviews, diary studies, surveys. What else can you do? Contextual enquiries, which is a little different like shop-alongs. I mean, there’s all different kinds of methods of consumer research that you can do. But when you’re doing those types of research, your questions are going to be different depending on the type of data you want to gather.
So for example, when you want to gather usage goals, or value on the usage, you want to ask some questions like, ‘what’s good or bad about using this product?’, which, I’ll give another little hint, that question by itself might be difficult, right? Start with that question, but then also what helps consumers elaborate on that is you say ‘well what’s good and bad about product X compared to product Y.’ And what’s even better is when you actually ask that question across product categories. So very briefly, if I want to investigate people who are taking energy drinks to help them be pumped up and energized and motivated to work out at the gym I’d say, ‘Okay, well, what’s good and bad about Red Bull compared to Monster’, or whatever they’re drinking. You can ask that so you kind of compare between same product category .
But then also look outside the product category like ‘well, what’s good or bad about using Red Bull as opposed to using a personal trainer that would get you excited and motivated at the gym?’ or ‘what’s good or bad about Red Bull when compared to listening to music?’. You have your headphones and just listening to just really energizing music, what’s good and bad about each of those. So that’s usage goals, that’s a certain type of value that you want to kind of capture and model that.
But the other type of change goals when you’re investigating that phenomenon and that value, the questions are a little different you want to you know, as it denotes, you want to investigate the change of the consumer is aiming to make or has made as a result of adopting the product. And a really great question to ask either directly to consumers, or to keep in your head when you’re investigating is ‘well, since you adopted this product, what can you do now that you couldn’t do before?’ so it’s again like what changed for you as a result of adopting this product, which in the case of Model Basics or now Backless Basics would be well now I can wear the clothes I couldn’t wear before. I can go to those cocktail parties and wear certain types of dresses I couldn’t wear before, or now I can wear tight-fitting, stretchy clothes and not have all these visible lines everywhere, or not have the straps, (you know) in the front or the back, and so and so forth. Or I can get that wedding dress that maybe before I couldn’t wear or maybe would avoid wearing because I was concerned about what’s going to show and what isn’t?
So, focus on the change of the consumer was hoping to make as a result of adopting the product. And again similar to how in the first scenario you were comparing products – well, what’s the difference between Red Bull and using Red Bull to get energized to the gym and using a personal trainer?, or listening to music to be pumped up at the gym – what’s good about those?
Compare and contrast the old consumer with the new one, like well, (what’s) before you adopted something like VWO to optimize your conversion rates, and so on and so forth, you know, how were things before that? What was it like not having that technology,? And they’ll say things like, you know, we just didn’t know how to attract our consumers, we were just making guesses about what to sell, we were having internal debates about how to change the website. Whereas now, now that we’ve got something like VWO we don’t have those debates anymore. When marketing or designer comes up and says hey, I think we need to feature product X, there’s no longer an argument around, ‘I think we shouldn’t do that, or yes or no, I think we should show the black one or the red one.’ The answer is now – ‘well, let’s test it and the numbers will tell us what to do.’
So again comparing contrasting, old me vs. new me. And the last kind of thing to think about is to think about targeting shoppers differently. So again, when you’re doing your research investigate really what motivates consumers to begin the shopping process? Is it because they had some breaking point with their old technology like, I just can’t – and I’ll use the broad example – oh it’s just you know, it’s always maybe they have another type of backless bra, or it doesn’t stick right, or it doesn’t fit me correctly, or it doesn’t have the right color for me because you know, I want to wear a white top and they only have beige and black. So maybe that in them triggers the shopping process. So now they’re shopping for a solution and they’re using their usage goals or the usage value as a criteria for adopting a new product.
Or is it you know, are they investigating some change goals? It’s like – oh, wow! I was getting ready. I decided to get married and I went to the store to pick out a new wedding dress and I saw these amazing dresses, but you know, they all had lace your white lace everywhere and I only have you know black bras with straps and I really wanted to wear but I couldn’t so, you know, what can I do?’
So maybe that triggers in them the shopping process, and in that case a change goal is going to be more attractive to them. So, you know again the particular strategy you pursue I think is contingent on what your research reveals.
But again think about, are you going to put all your eggs in one basket, you know, maybe we’ll just have one message, we’re going to lead with the change goal, but then you argue why our product with the usage goals, or maybe you have different landing pages depending on different Google searches or different advertising campaigns that you run they come to your product in different ways, and the copy of your website reflects that, or the imagery that they see reflects that. It’s up to you to figure out what the data is telling you but again think about what’s triggering the shopping process, and what types of value consumers are searching for and what types of value will attract them to adopt your product.
Thank you very much. Had a lot of fun. This was a new thing I started sharing out, a new talk actually. And this idea of innovation diseases is a new topic that I’m investigating and sharing. I have a whole list of innovation diseases so, if you think that you found an innovation disease and you want me to come investigate it, share that with me on Twitter or shoot me an email. Or if you want to see more of these, follow me on Twitter and say ‘Hey Al, I’m curious about these other innovation diseases, share those with me.’ Or if you want to have particular questions on this innovation disease or want some help/guidance, you can contact me or contact me through Twitter or through the website.
Varun: Thank you so much Alan. That was really insightful. And especially the fact that I captured from that presentation was that you can actually, you know decrease your bounce rate even without changing a product. So, that is really what excited me there – without changing the product you can increase your engagement with the users and actually change their behavior on the website. So that is one takeaway that I think our viewers can also take with them. So I have a few questions to ask you. If I think about, which value should I lead with? So do you think I should go ahead with usage goals or should I go ahead with change goals?
Alan: Yeah. I alluded that question or alluded an answer towards the end there. Again, I think it depends on what the data tell you, right! You do some research on your own and of course, you know tools like VWO are really great ways to figure that out also in a kind of more passive way also. But as a general rule, I like to kind of lead with the change goals, and then kind of secondary to that could have described the usage goal. Leading with the change goal really sets the stage of kind of why your product. And then when you talk about usage goals, you can talk about them in the context of how it helps them achieve the change goals.
Varun: That definitely makes sense Alan. And I also had one question there – for example, if somebody is trying out in a different industry altogether, for example, they are not on the e-commerce and all that. So is there any industry that you think should not be user centric and more be centered towards the product itself? For example, in the presentation you shared that the product that is there, they presented it in a different way. They modeled as Backless from the Models Basics. So do you think there is any industry which could still keep focusing on the product rather than what the demand is from the users?
Alan: Oh, yeah, I think in that scenario it worked for them because I think basically bras are, I mean they’ve been around for I don’t know 75 years, 50 or more than 50 years, 100 years wherever it is, they’ve been around for a long time. So everyone knows what a bra is and women, so this is actually interesting, it’s important to know about what your consumers’ experience is in the product category. So like for example, (you know and I use the bra as an example) women searching for a bra have used bras before. I mean they’ve probably been using it for years and years and years so they know everything about the bra. So you don’t need to focus so much on what it looks like and things of that nature because they get it right – it’s a very mature product category, the consumers have a lot of experience with it. So that kind of stuff is not so relevant. You could focus more on the change goals, and maybe not even worry so much about the about the product itself. Like, that happens a lot in beverage commercials or food commercials. Everyone knows what Coca-Cola is, you don’t need to have an ad about, oh it’s sugary and caffeine and refreshing and sweet and, here’s what it looks like. Everyone knows what Coke is, so you don’t spend so much time on that.
So you can highlight the product itself or the technologies when, I would say, you’re offering something new! Again, maybe Gmail is a good example. You know people were really attracted to the usage goal of that and their innovation really was around the usage of it. So they wanted to highlight that, which I think is a great way to track them, or if you have a lot of consumers come into your product or entering the market for the first time.
So if you went back maybe five years ago, or 10 years ago when Salesforce started you look back at how they promoted Salesforce. Well it kind of had to explain well, here’s actually how a CRM works. Here’s what CRM is and, here’s how it works and here’s what it does for you. But as the product categories mature and basically, you know, pretty much everyone in the business is using some sort of CRM, you don’t need to go down the laundry list to explain what a CRM is. You can kind of focus more on your differentiating features, but also how you change as a result of adopting your particular CRM.
Varun: Hey, I thank you for that elaborate answer. Another question that I have here is for example, what is that one emotion, thing, or thought that sways away a consumer from the from evaluating a product?
Alan: I think probably one of the biggest motivators of change are things associated with having anxiety or having control over things. So I think if you highlight, you know be aware of that both when consumers are coming to your product, that a lot of times especially like in a software or technology environment, they’re coming to your product because they’re under some stress or there’s some anxiety going on. It’s a time pressure, they need to make a change really fast. And so, you know, because of that their criteria of thinking about your product or evaluating it is going to be different.
Like for example, well actually this happened to me recently. So I recently started using pipedrive, to help me manage sales deals. And really why I did that was because I had a lot of deals getting processed all at once and you know, things were falling through the cracks or you know pressure, you know deals are not being followed up as frequently as I would like. So me as a shopper, as a converter I was under a lot of pressure of – oh my gosh, I need to fix this now. And so when I was on boarding or going to the onboarding process, I’m thinking in my mind – okay, great, you’re showing me all of these things, but I’ve got ten deals to process right now. So help me get my pipeline going right now, help me convert over right now. And if the product I was looking at didn’t get me up and running ASAP, I was going to abandon it and switch to something else. Like don’t show me a tour about you know, some other, show in-progress reports on your deals. That’s great, but right now like I gotta get control on my deals right now. Well, I think taking that anxiety and that scenario, focusing that emotion of really what’s bringing them to your product will help you kind of figure out both, you know how to promote the product but also how to onboard them correctly or make it more stickier, help them choose your product in the moment.
Varun: Yeah, and I think I can track back to the slide that you shared where you were talking about targeting different users differently based on what their requirement is. So I think I can track it back to that slide. So this next question is – in your book, When Coffee And Kale Compete, you mentioned a very important line “All jobs are emotional.” So, would you like to elaborate on that?
Alan: Yeah. Yeah. So as we investigate, so basically in the central question, the research question of job to be done is/was what causes consumers to adopt a product and how does that behavior define and create markets. And so while investing that behavior, we learned that consumers were kind of evaluating very different functions, product functions as competitors to each other. I think you know, like one good example is investigation around products that people hire to help them be energized or motivated to go to the gym and exercise. The product function ranges from energy drinks, to listening, to music, like an Ear Pod or in your Air pods or whatever, to working out with a buddy, to hiring a personal trainer. I mean, these are vastly different product functions.
But the only thing that kind of ties them together or can make sense to us in investigating into what consumers really want is recognizing that all they want is this feeling of being energized or you know excited about being at the gym. So, it’s actually they evaluate success through this feeling, this emotion of how I want to feel in the future. And so that’s really kind of the job to be done is help me, you know, go from feeling, you know depressed, tired, unmotivated to being motivated and excited about pursuing my fitness.
Varun: All right. Yeah that really is an awesome answer there. So what books are you currently reading?
Alan: So actually I don’t read many books so much anymore, so much as I read research. So like I just picked up the Handbook Of Consumer Psychology, which is something huge. But you know, you don’t read the whole thing. This is maybe like 30 studies in here and experiments. And so you read this one and then you read that one, and you look at these models and you kind of see what is and isn’t relevant. That’s it. There’s another one. No actually another one I’m reading is this one guy’s research on […]. I can remember the researcher’s name, but I’m really interested in how Max Tiff, it’s a type of survey that you can run. How that works and I like it because it forces consumers into a choice to make it some trade-off. And it represents my experience of how consumers make choices, you know, it’s basically what’s most important to you and what’s least important you. It’s not this likert scale of ‘on a scale of 0 to 10 how likely are you to recommend this product?’ It’s what’s most important to you and what’s least important to you. That represents more kind of how consumers think, just kind of round things up and down. And then maybe from like a kind of entertaining point of view. I’m re-reading some other books. I’m re-reading Dante’s Inferno. It’s a great piece and I’m also re-reading Machiavelli’s Discourses on Livy, so it’s just a theory of Republic. So that’s that’s what I read.
Varun: All right, that’s a lot of books for someone who says that he doesn’t read a lot of books. Okay, and one last question and then we let you off. So how can the audience connect with you if they would like to get in touch with you?
Alan: Yeah. Probably the easiest is Twitter, but if you’re not on that go to the Revealed website or you can just go to alanklement.com. Although I’ll be updating that eventually, but that’s it. Or go to the Revealed website. We have like a form you fill out there and just like hey, you know, I just want to talk with you and then it’ll come in to my team and I’ll get that. So Twitter, personal website, and email me through that or come to the company’s website Revealed and contact with you there.
Varun: All right. Thank you so much for your time Alan. It was a really insightful presentation, and we enjoyed the whole time with you. Thank you so much.
Alan: Thank you so much.
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